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Pam King: With and For listeners, we are so grateful for you. I have so appreciated your curiosity and your enthusiasm about the show. If you’re enjoying this episode and finding it helpful, or inspiring, I would be so grateful if you would take a moment after listening to share it with a friend. Alternatively, if you took a moment to rate the show and leave us review on whatever podcast app you’re listening to. That is one of the best ways to grow a podcast is by listeners sharing with the people that they’re with and for.
How do we grow into our full potential? Living up to what we know is the best version of ourselves, actualizing our goals and expressing our deepest purpose in a life of impact and love. Grounded in cognitive science and psychology, bestselling author, podcaster, educator, and researcher, Scott Barry Kaufman believes thatwe need to redefine our understanding of greatness and excellence to include our whole selves, our emotions, dreams, failures, and gifts, all to live a life that is fully human, fully yourself.
Scott Barry Kaufman: Greatness is not where it’s at. Because you start to see people. At the level of greatness who aren’t happy with themselves. They may not even feel as though they’re self-actualizing. What does it mean to feel like you are realizing your potential in a way that you wanna be realizing your potential in a way that you’re bringing your whole self to the table? You know, not just, uh, one part of you. You know, people are far more likely to yell at others, to respect them than to respect others. You know, you don’t, you don’t need an excuse to have good character.
Pam King: I’m Dr. Pam King, and you’re listening to With and For a podcast that explores the depths of psychological science and spiritual wisdom to offer practical guidance towards spiritual health, wholeness, and thriving on purpose.
Scott Barry Kaufman is the founding director of the Center for Human Potential and a bestselling author, speaker, and podcaster from his Yale doctoral work and decades of research to his teaching at Penn, NYU, and Columbia to his online gratitude course with Oprah Winfrey to running the World’s Biggest Psychology podcast to his TED Talks and more, Scott is one of the world’s go-to experts on psychology, self-actualization, and transcendence. He offers science-backed research grounded in cognitive and experimental psychology that expands our understanding of intelligence to include so much more than the traditional intellectual or cognitive model.
And his work on transcendence and self-actualization is impacting people of all ages by giving them new perspective on success, achievement in what it means to become fully human and fully yourself.
But it all started from an unexpected and surprising place of educational struggle. As a young person, Scott was told he was unintelligent, placed in special education classes through high school. This self-described late bloomer has gone on to an amazing career of psychology, education, coaching, and an advocate for thriving.
He has authored and edited numerous books, including his Celebrated Transcend, the New Science of Self-Actualization, ungifted Intelligence, redefined, as well as his latest books, choose Growth, a workbook for transcending trauma, fear and Self-Doubt, and rise above.
Overcome a Victim mindset, empower yourself and realize your full potential. And if you’re interested in more from Scott, please visit Scott Barry kaufman.com or subscribe to his brilliant podcast, the Psychology Podcast.
In this conversation with Scott Barry Kaufman, we discuss education and formation for the whole person. Not just our intellect, but also our body’s emotions and spirituality. Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and the journey that leads to self-actualization.
The difference it makes to see the world through growth rather than our own deficiencies. What it means to thrive even in the midst of mental illness, the horizontal dimensions of transcendence, and how to connect and align with our deepest values.
Pam King: I wanted to begin by reading an excerpt from some of Scott’s writing. These are words indicative of the ways he sees cognitive science and psychology impacting development, education, our growth, and true thriving.
It’s called a manifesto for a human centered education. It’s published on his website and it really helps to provide context, not just for our discussion today, but for his own story.
Here I’m quoting him and check our show notes to read along.
“Children aren’t machines to be manipulated. Exploited, extracted children are developing whole human beings with a multitude of needs, motivations, and future goals.
In some ways, each child is like every other child.
In other ways, each child is profoundly unique. The self-actualization journey of each child is a very sacred one.
Each child needs to explore learning and knowledge through direct experience and active project-based learning of the material.
To be with the material, not just do the material. Each child needs to learn how to be loving with others who seem very different from them. To learn how to disagree with others in a mature fashion. To present solid arguments rather than resort to name calling and bullying, to admire others. Not solely for the utility value, but for their human value.
To be love, to be able to witness a person very different and show love and compassion is a higher form of love. It’s easy to feel connection with those who share similar values and goals, but to show love for those who are very different is part of the process of becoming fully human.
Each child needs a purpose, a North Star goal, something larger that they are working toward that brings them a unique sense of satisfaction and energizes them as they move toward this broader goal. Ultimately, each child needs to be able to work toward a goal that goes beyond themselves and can have a positive impact on the broader society.
We need a human centered education system. One that acknowledges the universal needs for safety, security, connection, and mastery, as well as nurtures the unique developmental trajectory of each child, and the yearning for transcendence that exists deep within each child.”
All of this seems to embody for me, a whole person approach to thriving in spiritual health. One that aims at the fullness of our humanity. Through transcendence, we bring all of who we are for learning to be love as he puts it, to know ourselves as beloved, to live out that love for others, and to know that we are so much more than what we do, what we produce, or what we’re useful for
Hey, Scott, welcome to With and For. Thrilled to have you here and really appreciate you taking the time.
Scott Barry Kaufman: Thanks, Pam.
Pam King: You are so multifaceted. I just wanted to take a moment for you to explain how you like to introduce yourself.
Scott Barry Kaufman: Interesting question yeah, because I am so multifaceted there are many sides of me that I find that a difficult question to answer, but I I think that when I am asked these kinds of questions, I usually don’t go by uh, my professions or my professional identities, you know? ’causecause I could certainly be like professor, coach,educator,author, podcaster, et cetera, but I like to go by like, playful, Wacky, silly, nerdy, uh, really, um, in, into, truth and nuance and, and, and love and, and, and, absurdist humor.
Pam King: Well, wow. That is a rich start, even so much richer than roles, but thank you. And,, I love to root interviews in context and I’ve heard you share a bit about your own life and I think particularly as a late bloomer, which you don’t often have academic podcaster, all those roles that you play.
Say, and I’d love to just hear a bit about that for the context of where your work comes from.
Scott Barry Kaufman: so much of it comes from my early childhood experiences, being labeled ungifted as a kid for an auditory learning disability that I had and, being placed in special education,I felt as though, people in All around me, uh, really, the, you know, the kids, my friends that were in special ed with me, they were capable of so much more than people gave them credit for.
And I felt like I was the self-actualization coach, even as a kid, in trying to tell the parents, you know, how muchI, you know, your, your child has a lot more potential, um, than I think anyone gives them credit for. And, um. felt like I was a champion for the quirky kids. As early as can be in my life.
and, uh, really kind of inspired me to, go into this field. Once I made contact with the field in college. So, yeah, I think a lot of my early life experiences really shaped, what I’m doing today.
Pam King: I’m just trying to imagine the transformation in your own life. And I’m very curious about how you made it from being in special ed to early school, to like becoming a force in cognitive science in college and graduate school.
But what in your early life enabled that transformation? Like you said, you were an advocate for your own self transformation. Who or what enabled you to shift how you saw yourself and eventually how others saw you?
Scott Barry Kaufman: Well, in ninth grade, I had a special ed teacher who, I’d never seen before. It was a startup of, high school. And she was the first one to really see me,
you know, for who I am. And she took me aside after
class and she said, what are you still doing here. And I was like, yeah,
what am I still doing here? You know, and like, it really inspired me to,
take myself out and sign up for things and
see what I could do see what I was capable of I mean, I, I would have had no idea what I was capable of if I didn’t try You study creativity, intelligence, genius, innovation, cognitive science, intuition, learning models, expertise, and eventually you get to self-actualization and transcendence. And when I hear that and read that list, I’m in awe and overwhelmed. but I also hear a lot of growth and excellence.
Yeah
Pam King: love to see how do you hear those themes throughout your work?
Scott Barry Kaufman: It’s funny for the large part of my career and say the first 10 years I was obsessed with greatness
Pam King: Hmm.
Scott Barry Kaufman: I, like the subtitle of my first popular
book, Ungifted was “The Many Paths to Greatness. then I had, I edited a book called The Complexity of Greatness. So that was something that really I was obsessed with, but then I would say there became a clear shift in my career where I became more interested in self-actualization and realized that’s where it’s at, that greatness is not where it’s at.
Because you start to see people
at the level of greatness who aren’t happy with
themselves. They may not even feel as though they’re self-actualizing. So there are different
things. self-actualization and greatness they can be the same thing actually, but they can also pull apart in really meaningful ways.
And also greatness seemed to be tied up with status and with power and with public acclaim. and, My research interest turned a little more toward, um, what does it mean to feel like you are realizing your potential in a way that you wanna be realizing your potential in a way that you’re bringing your whole self to the table?
You know, not just uh, one part of you.
Pam King: But as he worked through years of that research, he came to see that this dual process approach to intelligence a search for greatness was still missing something going beyond status, traditional success and greatness.
He found self-actualization, that whole person, human centered approach to thriving.
And one of the most surprising and positive implications is that living with mental illness does not prevent a person from thriving
Well, before I dive too much into self-actualization. One of the questions that I always ask my guests, and this is a term that I use as a developmental scientist what does thriving mean to you?
Scott Barry Kaufman: you know, I often think of it in the context of, not merely existing.and because sometimes we can say, well, okay, like we care so much about your mental health, right. And so much of the goal of therapy is to increase your mental health, to relieve your symptoms of mental illness.
But even if you’ve done that, you’re not necessarily thriving. I, I, I, I see that as a, as much, much higher north,North of zero,uh, than just getting to zero. To getting to kind of just an existing part where you’re, you know, even just mentally healthy, you can be mental health but not thriving,
plenty of mental healthy people who aren’t thriving. And I would also say, are you ready for
this,
Pam King: I’m ready. I got my pen.
Scott Barry Kaufman: that you can be mentally ill and
thriving.
Pam King: Agree
Scott Barry Kaufman: So we need a, we need a Look at me.
I’m a mess. Um, and uh, you know, it’s like, uh, I just don’t think we appreciate that,uh, nearly as much. I’ve done a lot of research on the link between mental illness and creativity.
and that’s a big, area of research of mine. So yeah, just kind of breaking down these, false dichotomy as we have in our society, I think is important.
Pam King: I’d love to hear your thoughts on mental illness and creativity specifically.
Scott Barry Kaufman: I think that we need to recognize that all these things fall a continuum. schizophrenia is really a continuum. You don’t either have schizophrenia or you don’t. yeah, it’s certainly there are diagnoses for various purposes, but, what you tend to find is that the children of people with full blown mental diagnoses, tend to be more creative, than the rest of the population.
And the reason why is because they’re getting, watered down genes of, and they’re getting kind of the goodies, the goodies of the mentalness without the badies, so they’re getting the, you know, what does a watered down version of schizophrenia look like? Well, it’s one where you have a really rich imagination where you really are not afraid of Go on places in your head That might be taboo, you know, or, uh, you know, how, how dare you think through certain possibilities, you know, nothing’s off limits in the head. now for full blown schizophrenia that can be problematic because you can’t you have trouble distinguishing that from reality and you end up hallucinating and be put in a mental institution for it often, but but if a lot of children of uh,of parents with full blown mentalness tend to be more creative because they really are able to Not throw out the baby with the bath water of these traits that exist on a continuum in all of us Does that make sense?
Pam King: Absolutely makes sense. when we have permission to imagine possibilities, that keep us connected to reality in ourself or push our understanding of reality, but don’t dislodge us. Those can be such assets and so helpful.
Now to really understand the context behind Scott’s approach to thriving, we need to back up to your college days a bit and get a Psychology 101 refresher course on Abraham Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. Scott has done an amazing job of expanding and developing his own interpretation of this famous psychological concept in his book Transcend.
, One way Maslow’s hierarchy has been taught is to imagine a pyramid shape divided into five levels. Maslow’s hierarchy starts with the ground level of physiological needs, then moves up to safety, protection, and security, then to belonging and love. Then steam in each of these Maslow characterizes as the deficiency realm or D realm. This deficiency realm consists of the needs for survival.
But crowning, the top of the pyramid is another realm. A need not based in deficiency or survival, but in growth and a transcendent sense of being. Maslow called it self-actualization and it’s part of the be realm. The realm of being and growth, and I’d say thriving.
Now as we’ll see, Scott thinks the pyramid oversimplifies Maslow’s theory, but both Scott Barry Kaufman and Abraham Maslow agree we need to choose growth and consistently seek it out maslow wrote, one can choose to go back toward safety or forward toward growth.
Growth must be chosen again and again. Fear must be overcome again and again
I appreciate so much what you just said about mental illness in thriving. I hope to have a vision and offering of thriving that all persons can thrive, even if they’re struggling from physical disability or psychological mental illness.
And I think your framework around needs in the D realm, in the B realm, in the constant back and forth.
Provides a helpful lens to understand how that could be so, but I’d love to have you unpack what you mean by mentally ill and how mentally ill can be connected to
thriving.
Scott Barry Kaufman: Well, I, when I use the word mental, I, I’m talking about the kind of labels
we put on people as psychiatrists or a psychologist. thing, we deem certain things as mentally ill, right? Like if you have borderline personality disorder, you are mentally ill. if you, uh, have schizophrenia, you’re mentally ill.
If you know, these, these are, these are all labels and these are all judgements. from professionals. and also we can distinguish the labels that are put on us from the inner experience of humans. I mean, there are,
it certainly, there’s an experience that can, that, that it feels like to feel mentally ill in the sense that you definitely feel like you’re being driven by your compulsions.
You’re driven by your,your addictions, by things that, uh, are taking you away from your highest values, and your sense of connection to yourself. so those things are real and they’re important to recognize, and to help with. but the D Realm versus B Realm distinction is relevant here because We can be constantly driven by our deprivations.
The D realm is deprive demotivation, deprivation, motivation. This is a framework taken from Abraham Maslow, the humanistic psychologist. We can be driven by, what we lack, you know, like, oh, everything in the world. All I care about is,respect me. I mean, that’s a big one you see a lot in our society today is everyone wants respect.
people are far more likely to demand respect than mattering, for instance, everyone wants to matter and, uh, everywhere you look these days, it’s I matter No, I matter No, I matter not, you know, you get in trouble if you say like, but I matter too. it’s like, oh, well then you’re dismissing my mattering.
It’s like, oh, it’s dizzying.
but. Far few people are willing to
treat others as though they
matter. and that takes us to thethe B realm or the growth
realm. You know, people are far more likely to yell at others, to respect them than to respect
others. that’s a major way of, I’ve never quite put it that way, but it, I think it illustrates the difference between the,the being realm and the growth realm versus being driven entirely by your deprivations.
Do you know what I mean, Pam? Do you see that in politics?
Pam King: Absolutely. I mean, like, I’m just gonna cycle back on something you said that I’ve never thought of, like the demanding respect or the declaration that I matter. I even think like with the proliferation of like digital space, internet podcasts, all of a sudden. I. Anybody can matter where like 30, 40 years ago, you needed the pedigree, you needed the PhD, you had the role, um, you had the job, you had the C-suite and the executive that mattered.
But now there’s like a democracy of mattering because of this digital world we inhabit. And so people Become a bit agro at times, of the Mattering declaration. and I believe you’re absolutely right and fundamental to my understanding of thriving is it’s much more about we or you than it is me. And thus the name of the podcast is With and for, because as much as I might thrive, cultivate my gifts, pursue my passions and my purpose, like, unless that is with others. Actually, for others it goes bankrupt really fast.
But I love the beeline as like, you matter is a way to elevate ourselves out of the water and into the breezes of life that fill us, fill ourselves.
Scott Barry Kaufman: Yeah, very well said, Pam. Um, I, I, I’ve argued that I think some people matter too much
and Let’s be honest.
let’s be honest.
Some people take up so much space. I. That they’re not leaving any space for others to matter And, and you, you really can matter too much You really you know, like,you like, get over yourself.
We’re all gonna die
uh, We’re all human. We’re all Are on this planet just in such a short amount of time. And it’s like, what can we do to kind of.
Evenly distribute this mattering among all humans is a much more interesting question to me than like someone coming up to me and demanding that I,
Treat them as though they’re the,the only thing that matters in this world, you know, like colossal narcissists matter too much in my opinion.
Pam King: Yeah, So actually, I would love to ask you,you’re such a scientist, you’ve done hardcore work on cognition and I’ve also heard yourself, you describe yourself as a deeply spiritual person.
And I’d love to hear how you reconcile or how you integrate psychology and spirituality.
Scott Barry Kaufman: Um, you know, I wrote a book called Transcend.
Pam King: Loved it.
Scott Barry Kaufman: so I’m kind of interested in that question. I’m interested in
spiritual
experiences that we can all rally
around and that don’t, and don’t divide us as humans. And so. I. I’m not anti-religion, as some of my colleagues are,
some of these atheists, come out there swinging
they come out, like sam harris, he serves a few, they’re very passionate and i’m a little a bit gentler than that in that I think that there are aspects of
Religion that we all can share.
Actually, Sam would agree with me on that. that there’s, there, there are spiritual experiences like awe and wonder and, any, and a whole wide range of self transcendent experiences that don’t need to
be, attributed to one specific God over another,
I really liked the way Maslow approached
it. He argued that we don’t need to appeal to the gods for our own potential, that we have it within us and we can become our own gods, through, our values, through our hard work, through our character. You know, you don’t, you don’t need an excuse to have good character.
Pam King: Well said.
Scott Barry Kaufman: so I love, I, I mean, I consider myself very spiritual of a human.
Pam King: and part of that is being able to find like your highest values within yourself of what, of what means the most of how you derive
character.
Scott Barry Kaufman: funny because I’d say. That the higher versus lower thing. I’ve been rethinking that lately. But I think that,
like higher, lower, va just your values,I don’t wanna make judgment calls, like, the key is alignment
and.
I created self-actualization, coaching, created it. and, uh, and, uh, it’s a form of coaching where we we’re not in the business of judging.you know, but we are in the business of helping you with your alignment. people differ so wildly on this planet.
Some people, some humans are obsessed with relational. like, Oh, they always wanna, you know, make
deep connections. do you ever meet someone and like immediately within the three first three seconds, they’re like trying to make a deep connection with you. And you’re just like,
I just met you.
Um,
whereas there’s others, there are other people on this planet, their values are different. they’re obsessed with power or they’re maybe, I don’t know, making money.these things can all coexist as well. It’s not that everyone who wants to make money is, doesn’t care about relational things, but I’m just saying people differ in their priority tree.
and I just wanna help people align themselves with who they truly wanna be and what’s right for them.
I. In the spirit of Maslow, and really this is an extension and development of Maslow’s theories, Scott has developed his own metaphor to describe our journey towards self-actualization, that life is like a sailboat. I asked him to describe that image. and the role it plays in explaining the process that leads towards self-actualization
Pam King: I’d love my audience to really understand, Your reconceptualization of Maslow’s, ’cause you bring such a deeper understanding when you say alignment.
I’m wondering how that fits with, your concept of self-actualization.
Scott Barry Kaufman: I mean, the way I see, you know, is, is life is like a sailboat.The self-actualization journey is one where we
have to open our sail
to move in the direction of our most valued port. But we have trouble doing that if our boat is not safe and secure. And stable if we’re feeling
constant sense of,is the word unsafety a word?
Pam King: It is if you
say it.
Scott Barry Kaufman: If we’re well, unsafe, unsafe is
certainly a word. So, so unsafety, I guess has to be
a word too. Um, yeah. So where we feel unsafe, where we feel,
I.
A lack of, connection, a lack of belonging, intimacy, and, and self-esteem. we can kind of feel off kilter and we can feel, uh, removed from ourselves and disconnected, from the world.
but just having a stable boat, makes it hard for us to,
uh.move in the direction we want to, unless we open up that sail and we’re vulnerable to the winds and the waves
and crashing down us to take the sailboat
metaphor and also recognizing, which is relevant to your own podcast theme is that there are other boats in the sea.
Some people forget that. so, yeah, I just think that, re, reimagining Maslow’s famous hierarchy of needs, which was usually depicted as a triangle or a, as you’re stepping over one need to get to the top, Um, and then you never face the need again is just a,a real,not a good way.
It’s not a good way of, of thinking of the self-actualization process. And then transcendence comes along for the ride of. A deep integration of your whole self and the service of realizing the good society so that’s kind of how I view the self-actualization journey But what exactly is the transcendence that Scott identifies as the end or tell us of this process of self-actualization for Scott? Transcendence is a horizontal that is human process rather than vertical or divine. I asked him to elaborate and it led to very important implications about the social dimensions of spirituality and how we pursue it in more or less healthy ways.
Pam King: On the healthy side, there’s oneness and openness and compassion. On the unhealthy side, there’s comparison, competition, tribalism, and narcissism.
And if you’re interested, in more on the facets of spiritual health, including the relational, check out the Thrive center.org/explore For you, what is transcendence?
Scott Barry Kaufman: I believe in horizontal transcendence, not vertical transcendence. So we’re, it’s more about becoming one with the world and is about being born, enlightened than others. I think there’s a lot of spiritual narcissism in the world.
Um, I’ve written a lot about that. uh, wrote an article for Scientific American on spiritual narcissism. Um, and I think there are a lot of dark healers out there. this gets dark territory, but, there are a lot of, really narcissistic, empaths.
Pam King: Who self-identified empaths who really think they know what’s best for everyone, because of their narcissism But they’re not actually really helping people.
Scott Barry Kaufman: They’re actually destroying other lives And so not to, sorry didn’t mean to get so dark, but I want to contrast fake Transcendence pseudo transcendence
Pam King: Okay. So I just, I really appreciate what you said. Like in terms of, and I wanna unpack a bit more. So
spiritual narcissist. question I wanted to ask you is like just in terms of looking at the hierarchy or not so hierarchy of needs, if that gives you particular perspective on narcissism
and you what, so why don’t we start there and I have a follow up question.
Scott Barry Kaufman: Well, certainly, I mean, the self-esteem need is important, but a lot of people regulate it in unhealthy ways. And then there are ways of having a healthy self-esteem. Healthy self-esteem is one We just feel enough. and, uh, and narcissistic self-esteem is one where you feel like you’re superior to others, either because you’re inherently born that way.
some, you know, how some people walk around like they’re inherently superior to others just because of their way they’re born. can you think of anyone like that in this world? and then there’s some,uh, and there there, are some people who feel, uh, they’re, uh, entitled to things because just ’cause they’ve suffered.
so there’s different forms of entitlement, but but yeah A healthy self-esteem is one where you’re not less than you are. You’re not puffed up. You are just Worthy you feel worthy as just being
Pam King: Well, and then going back to the spiritual narcissist, it was really interesting to me that you commented that people can use their empathy. It’s almost like they recruit this potentially beautiful human strength of empathy and perspective taking, but they use it for their own ends. They’re not using it in a sense, or they’re using being with people, but for their own purposes, not greater purposes.
Scott Barry Kaufman: Nailed it. You nailed it. yeah, I mean,spiritual narcissists are like, it’s like the guru that like ends up sexually abusing all their women, you know? or like who, um,you see it in religion all the time. Those who, say, who use God as an excuse to treat people shitty, You know, like to me that’s not,I think Christ would approve of that.
Pam King: I absolutely agree.
Scott Barry Kaufman: I mean, it happens all the time though.
Pam King: All too often as the media, represents,
on this, because this is a really,
like you said, it’s controversial. it’s a delicate issue, of people using power, whether in the context of spirituality or other
places, uh, that ends up being abusive. I’d love to ask you, If you have practices that you might recommend that can help keep this in check, in a sense.
Like, how do I know I’m not using my empathy skills or my sense of altruism for my own ends and not others?
Do you, do you have any.
Scott Barry Kaufman: A big part of this is to just simply, care about the real felt needs of others. Not the extent to really ask yourself, am I doing, am I helping someone? Am I doing this because of my own need for recognition and to feel needed?
Because that’s usually a terrible motivation to do something is because you need to be needed.I know people in my life, I have family members, I won’t mention names, who so desperately need to be needed, but they fall into the realm of intrusive helping, because they’re not, like, I didn’t even ask for it first, for that. and then second of all, it’s like making my life more complicated, it’s not what I actually need, it’s here, take it and appreciate it.
It’s like, well, did I ask for it?so, be ask yourself really do some soul searching
Am I doing this because I need to be needed or because this person really needs it? And then I mean ask the person if they really need it
Pam King: That’s a beautiful backstop, ’cause I was gonna say, I’m a parent. I’ve got three kids. I got a 16-year-old, an 18-year-old, and a 20-year-old. And I have some pretty clear ideas about their needs. I’m not sure they’re
their felt needs, but they’re the parent projected needs. And in some, on some days, I might have a better idea than they do, but I can ask them. So I’m not an intrusive helper.
Scott Barry Kaufman: you absolutely can but also I’ll say some other things just because we all can fall prey to this doesn’t make you immediately a spiritual narcissist if Every now and then you know, or even as a parent, I think the parent domain is particularly,get out of jail free card in a lot of ways because you are the adult in the
room you have to make decisions about what you think is right for your child, even
if it’s not always right.
I think you need to cut yourself some slack, um, as a parent, um, show some self-compassion. It’s really hard being a parent and trying to figure out what the best thing is for that child’s future. so, there’s some nuance there for sure. I usually think of it in, when I talk about this in the context of gurus and cults,
Pam King: And I mean, that’s where humility is such a helpful, concept to keep in mind.
Scott Barry Kaufman: It’s huge. It’s huge. Yeah.
Pam King: One of the core principles in my work, both here on the podcast and through the Thrive Center at Fuller, is that science and spirituality go hand in hand. They’re aligned
in my view, theology benefits from the service of psychology to supply important data for understanding human nature as embodied relational beings.
But psychological science ultimately can’t answer our most profound questions about meaning and purpose.
Scott’s work on transcendence gives him a fascinating perspective on the social dimensions of spirituality, The things that draw us out of ourselves and draw us together. which emerge from his research in cognitive science
I feel like
your sailboat metaphor,
Provides so much nuance into understanding you know, how our needs need to be integrated and routinely and
consistently address so that we can open ourselves to the wind.
but I’m also very aware that it’s a very
individualistic metaphor and I was curious like, Is there a fleet, in your conceptualization of the sailboat metaphor, and
where’s the other boats?
Scott Barry Kaufman: Um, well, people are,are constantly suggesting to me revisions to it. And,I’m open for expanding the metaphor in ways that maybe bring in other boats more for sure. I’m open to your suggestions. other boats matter
and that’s something to recognize and,and,and realize, and then also the way I often put it is that When we are usually transcending ourselves, we’re in a state of the world where the, we’re rising the tide for everyone. And that’s the part of the metaphor where we, that addresses what you’re bring, what you’re talking about is, how can we really rise the tide for everyone? And,there’s a lot of tribalism going on in America right now. I don’t know if you’ve noticed. and, Yeah. And I don’t think there’s a lot, a real spirit of rising the tide for everyone.
There’s let’s rise the tide for people who look like me or people who think like me,
Pam King: One of my personal research interests is moral and spiritual agility and adaptation. The ability to work with life circumstances, whether it’s the coming and going of difficult emotions, a desire to grow and improve, or what to do in the most dire scenarios of suffering and loss.
The pursuit of moral and spiritual agility is particularly exemplified in a series of questions that Scott offered for extended reflection, which I’d encourage you to think through meditatively.
Pam King: Common society, rising the tide for everyone or the good
society that
gets into moral ground for me. And as you just mentioned, we are in a moment of like moral absolution or binary morality.
And I’m curious in this concept of alignment, self-actualization, which is so process
oriented, how do you guide people to become.
Or stay or become morally agile? Not relativistic, but where they can become rooted in a clear moral sense that doesn’t go
into absolutes.
Scott Barry Kaufman: I mean, we’re in a, we’re in a culture of moral relativism in the sense that, in not the sense you’re talking about, but in not flexibility, but in the sense of, well, I’ll give it a pass if they’re in my ingroup, but they’re, if they’re in my outgroup, then we’re gonna Condemn them to hell.
And I think that the answer to your question is looking within a lot more than we do
and being like,
accepting of yourself makes you accepting more of others. A lot of
people who cast that stone to others, our research shows they don’t really like themselves
and they’re doing an awful lot of projection.
And, you know, you know, the people who are
constantly. out there screaming at others
and condemning others
and publicly humiliating them on social media. They don’t tend to be
really happy people. Uh, they don’t tend to be very,
internally, self-accepting. now I’m not saying there aren’t things, injustice, real injustices to, we should be screaming down.
I’m not saying that. And, certainly there, I think there’s, there are universal moral principles of humanity. I would never argue that everything is, that anything goes,
but being more flexible to me is,is the same as being morally expansive and morally, inclusive of, not only those that we are casting the stone at, but also those who are maybe. In our ingroup or even more ingroup within ourselves.
You can really get really close in touch with your values and, you know, there are lists and things if you need some help to jog it.
but think about what legacy you wanna live on this planet, Um, and do some reflections, like, what does it mean to have a legacy? What might I want my legacy to be? What am I most proud of in my life thus far? What do I still wish to accomplish? What sort of things do I say yes to in my life?
Really think through that. What do I all, what kind of things do I say no to? Is there a pattern there? what roles do I play in my life that I most cherish? what roles do I still wish to play? What am I most passionate and enthusiastic about? What’s my reason for being? My ego guy? Uh, What do I want my loved ones to say about me at the end of my life? And how do I want my life to be honored or celebrated when I die? it’s never too early or too late to think through these things
change course
Pam King: We started the interview with me asking about, or commenting how multifaceted you were in the different roles, and you just offered us an opportunity to reflect on our legacy and to consider what roles we cherish most or what is most life giving. And without wanting to violate boundaries or having just met you, I’d love to ask you, at this season in your life spontaneously, what are the roles in your life that you most cherish and that are most life giving for you
Scott Barry Kaufman: Coach professor, communicator, you know, through my books and my podcast. I don’t know what it would be called, but someone who likes to shine the spotlight on people who deserve it who don’t have the platform?
Pam King: One last question for you. So, I read your newsletter last night on “whole love.”
Can you give us a little preview of your concept of whole love and how that takes place in relationships?
Scott Barry Kaufman: It’s, you know, it’s, it’s one where you feel like all the parts of you are accepted by your partner and, uh, that you, you feel seen, you feel really seen in your, end that your real felt needs are considered and that, uh, you both as a unit are, are growing together.
So it’s as simple and as hard as that.
Pam King: Scott, you have a beautiful way of seeing people and it’s a very life-giving thing you do. You bring a ton of insight into things that often people don’t talk about, like transcendence and spirituality and, wholeness. So, you are a life giver.
Scott Barry Kaufman: Thank you so much, Pam. That really means a lot to me.
Pam King: Scott Barry Kaufman is amplifying the science of self-actualization by inviting us to thrive in the sailboat of life, pursuing our own transcendence together for the thriving of all humanity.
The key takeaways that I will carry with me from this conversation are the following.
Science and spirituality work together as an integrated pursuit of truth. Intelligence is so much more than a thought process. Self-actualization leads us well beyond the self.
Life is like a sailboat,
so let the wind fill your sails as you traverse the waves towards your most valued harbor. And may. The tides rise for all of us.
To be a whole person means resting in a loving compassion for ourselves and others, and openness and oneness with the world.
Many people could carry you across the bridge, but only you can walk the path.
Pam King: With and For is a production of the Thrive Center at Fuller Theological Seminary. For more information, visit our website, thethrivecenter.org, where you’ll find all sorts of resources to support your pursuit of wholeness and a life of thriving on purpose. I am so grateful to the staff and fellows of the Thrive Center and our With and For podcast team.
Jill Westbrook is our senior director and producer Lauren Kim is our operations manager. Wren Jeurgensen is our social media graphic designer. Evan Rosa is our consulting producer. And special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology and Marriage and Family Therapy.
I’m your host, Dr. Pam King. Thank you for listening.
Scott Barry Kaufman
Scott Barry Kaufman is a cognitive scientist, author, and humanistic psychologist exploring the depths of human potential. He is the founding director of the Center for Human Potential and a the best-selling author, speaker, and podcaster. He hosts The Psychology Podcast. And he is author and/or editor of numerous books, including his celebrated Transcend: The New Science of Self-Actualization, Ungifted: Intelligence Redefined, as well as his latest books, Choose Growth: A Workbook for Transcending Trauma, Fear, and Self-Doubt and Rise Above: Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential. If you’re interested in more from Scott, visit scottbarrykaufman.com.
Episode Summary
How can we grow into our full potential?—living up to what we know is the best version of ourselves, actualizing our goals, and expressing our deepest purpose in a life of impact and love?
Grounded in cognitive science and psychology, best-selling author, podcaster, educator and researcher Scott Barry Kaufman believes that we need to redefine our understanding of greatness and excellence to include our whole selves—our emotions, dreams, failures, and gifts—all to live a life that is fully human, fully yourself.
In this conversation with Scott Barry Kaufman, we discuss:
- Education and formation for the whole person, not just our intellect but our bodies, emotions, and spirituality
- Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and the journey that leads to self-actualization
- The difference it makes to see the world through growth rather than our deficiencies
- What it means to thrive even in the midst of mental illness
- The horizontal dimensions of transcendence
- And how to connect and align with your deepest values
Show Notes
Episode Highlights
- “You can be mentally ill and thriving.”
- “Self-actualization is bringing your whole self to the table—not just one part of you.”
- “Real transcendence is about becoming one with the world—not being more enlightened than others.”
- “People are far more likely to demand respect than to give it.”
- “Only you can walk the path.”
Helpful Links and Resources
- Visit scottbarrykaufman.com
- The Psychology Podcast with Scott Barry Kaufman
- Choose Growth Workbook by Kaufman & Feingold
- *Transcend: The New Science of Self-Actualization,* by Scott Barry Kaufman
- Scientific American: Spiritual Narcissism
- The Lights Triad Personality Test
- Sensitive Men Rising Documentary
- Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs Reimagined – Big Think
- Corey Mascara Podcast on Values
Show Notes
- Origin Story and Human Complexity
- Scott shares his journey from being labeled “ungifted” with an auditory disability to becoming a cognitive scientist.
- A pivotal teacher asked, “What are you still doing here?”—sparking self-belief and ambition.
- “I was a champion for the quirky kids from the start.”
- His work has shifted from an early obsession with greatness to a lifelong pursuit of self-actualization.
- “Greatness is tied up in power and status. Self-actualization is about bringing your whole self.”
- Reimagining Maslow & The Sailboat Metaphor
- Kaufman replaces the hierarchy of needs with a dynamic sailboat metaphor.
- The boat represents safety (security, connection, self-esteem); the sail represents growth and transcendence.
- “Unless we open our sail and become vulnerable to the wind, we can't move toward what matters.”
- Adds collective dimension: “There are other boats in the sea. Some people forget that.”
- Contrasts “horizontal transcendence” (connection) with “spiritual narcissism” (superiority).
- Mental Illness, Creativity, and Thriving
- Challenges the binary between wellness and illness: “You can be mentally ill and thriving.”
- Cites research showing creative strengths in children of those with mental illness.
- “They get the goodies without the baddies—the imagination without the psychosis.”
- Dismantles false dichotomies in psychiatry: labels vs. lived experience.
- Encourages integration rather than repression of neurodivergence and emotion.
- Alignment, Identity, and Individual Growth
- Alignment—not perfection—is the goal of self-actualization.
- “Self-actualization coaching isn’t about judgment. It’s about helping people align with their values.”
- Different people prioritize different values: connection, power, freedom, meaning.
- Encourages reflection: What roles do you cherish most? What do you say yes and no to?
- “Ask: What’s my reason for being? What legacy do I want to leave?”
- Moral Psychology and Mattering
- Discusses mattering and the perils of performative self-importance.
- “Some people matter too much… they take up so much space, there’s no room for others.”
- Proposes a “mattering ecology” for shared dignity and contribution.
- On moral flexibility: “People who scream loudest often don’t like themselves.”
- Calls for emotional regulation, reflection, and collective moral grounding in a polarized world.
- Relationships, Whole Love, and Spirituality
- Introduces the concept of “whole love”—where all parts of the self are seen, accepted, and growing together.
- “It's as simple and as hard as that.”
- Critiques spiritual narcissism and “dark empaths” who use others for ego validation.
- Real empathy requires asking: “Am I helping this person for their sake—or because I need to be needed?”
- “Good character doesn’t need an excuse.”
- Practical Takeaways & Coaching Tools
- Directs listeners to Choose Growth, a practical workbook co-authored with Dr. Jordan Feingold.
- Reflection prompts: What am I proud of? What do I wish to change? What’s my legacy?
- Encourages clarity around values and meaningful roles.
- Offers self-coaching questions to foster personal development and alignment.
- Provides listeners with tools for discernment, purpose, and sustainable growth.
- Pam King’s Key Takeaways
- Science and spirituality work together as an integrated pursuit of truth.
- Intelligence is so much more than a thought-process.
- Self-actualization leads us well beyond the self.
- Life is like a sailboat: so let the wind fill your sails as you dance on the waves toward our most valued harbor—and may the tides rise for all of us.
- To be a whole-person means resting in a loving compassion for ourselves and others—an openness and oneness with the world.
- “Many people could carry you across the bridge, but only you can walk the path.”
About the Thrive Center
- Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
- Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
- Follow us on X @thrivecenter
- Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter
About Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.About With & For
- Host: Pam King
- Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
- Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
- Social Media Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
- Consulting Producer: Evan Rosa
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