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and for,
Meaningful relationships are mutual, balanced with give and take, equal influence between partners and a vibrant dance of loving responsiveness and caring attention.
Marriage and family therapist and professor Dr. Jessica ChenFeng is calling us toward a more justice oriented approach to relationships and to mental health and wellbeing.
She invites us to openhearted and empathetic perspective, taking seeking an integrated wholeness that incorporates all of who we are.
Jessica ChenFeng: Could we still be thriving, even if life is often stressful? I think the answer is yes. I think of thriving as both this internal state and a relational reality that while I am still encountering a stressful day in my case, a three year old daughter who woke up in the middle of the night multiple times this week and a very full work week, right?
That I feel like I’m thriving because I’m living my life with an open heart. An open mind and my relationships are meaningful.
Pam King: I’m Dr. Pam King, and you’re listening to With and For a podcast that explores the depths of psychological science and spiritual wisdom to offer practical guidance towards spiritual health, wholeness, and thriving on purpose.
Welcome my friends. Thank you for joining me on with and for I’m so delighted today to introduce you to my dear colleague, Dr. Jessica ChenFeng. She’s an associate professor at the School of Psychology and Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary and is also director of the Asian American Wellbeing Collaboratory at Fuller’s Asian American Center.
Prior to her time at Fuller, she was on the faculty at Loma Linda University and also California State University Northridge.
Jessica is known for her clinical expertise and scholarship, integrating socio contextual lenses of gender, race, and generation into work with minoritized individuals, families, and communities.
In the last few years, her primary clinical focus has been the wellbeing of physicians, especially through pandemic related trauma and burnout.
She’s co-authored two books, finding Your Voice as a Beginning, marriage and Family Therapist, as well as Asian American Identities, relationships, and Cultural Legacies, reflections from Marriage and Family Therapists.
And she received the 2022 American Family Therapy Academy Early Career Award. If you’re interested in learning more about Jessica, I’d encourage you, of course, to check out her books. But if you yourself are interested in mental and spiritual health.
Check out the masters or doctoral programs at Fuller School of Psychology and Marriage and Family Therapy.
And you can study with Jessica and me. You’ll find that all linked in our show notes. In this conversation with Jessica ChenFeng, we discuss
the importance of integrated and whole experience of ourselves allowing gender, racial, and cultural identities to weave together in our sense of vocation and contribution to the world,
the importance of mutuality in relationships. But particularly in marriage and family systems, the ways emotional power flows in a relationship and impacts marriage and family dynamics. The difference between partners focusing on meeting their individual needs and caring for the health of an intimate relationship.
Angie offers a guided practical exercise to help us lovingly notice and accept our inner experience with an open heart to justice vulnerability, and the reminder that we are beloved in the eyes of God
Pam King: Jessica, welcome my dear colleague to With and For.
Jessica ChenFeng: So good to be here with you, Pam.
Pam King: I’m thrilled to have you here. I, have been so grateful for, all the wisdom and energy and super helpful perspective that you bring. I’d love to ask you to just two or three things about who you are, whether it’s a your life journey or values or things that are particularly meaningful that inform who Dr. Jessica ChenFeng is.
Jessica ChenFeng: Yeah, I was thinking about this and what would be helpful to share about. And, the phrase that came to my mind, uh, a sort of both and yes, and reality shapes a lot of who I am for example, I’m a second generation Taiwanese American woman, and so I have this sort of grounded in Southern California.
Born and raised here identity. And. The daughter of immigrants with a lot of connection to Taiwan and other Asian countries, And my extended family, by cultural realities, the yes. And is also, this is not to be stereotypical, not to live into these racialized stereotypes of us, but part of me is really great at.
calculations, math, statistics, all of these things. But I love the creative arts, right? And so, I find that the way I’ve lived my life is kind of like a bridge across spaces because of the yes and nature of myself, my family. Um, the other thing I think I would say is that I love. all things earthy.
So whether it’s colors, textures, grounding and nature, sort of gives me life. And so as much as I, I think our conversation is going to be really fun and engaging our brains, for me, at least a lot of this development and knowledge and experience comes out of just connection to the earth and the things that, aesthetically pleasing, beautiful, engage the spirit.
Like that’s a lot of who I am. So I don’t know if, there are other things that would be helpful to mention, but that’s sort of beyond our formal academic introductions, but more about my, my inner self.
Pam King: I love that. I love starting there with that very holistic perspective. And as I approach Thriving, it is as much about our bodies, our connection to the environment, as it is to our personality and beliefs. emotions, senses of purpose, and more abstract things like spirituality.
Just one other personal question, to start our conversation I’ll ask is how does your personal faith involve your clinical work and your research?
Jessica ChenFeng: So the first thing that comes to my mind is I’ve taught at a state school where there’s not, of course, explicit integration of Christian faith with the teaching of marriage and family therapy, which is what I teach. And, yes, although Fuller is my own alma mater, I think coming back to teach here and sort of engage in research involving my whole self, which is my Christian identity, along with so many other parts of me is so important to me because I would say how I see the world, how I see our human relationships, how I see our racialized and gendered selves has everything to do with who God made us to be, who God invites us to be with one another in community.
And Those are just taken for granted truths. I think I live and breathe every day.
Pam King: Jessica’s description of her inner self, in the words both, and Yes. And I find this so evocative in fitting because we’re all on a journey.
I know. I am on a journey to integrate the particularities of who I am into some coherent constellation of wholeness. The way she speaks about beauty, creativity, and physicality, intertwining with intellect and relationships. I think it’s important to see the integrative nature of the way she thinks and teaches and leads.
Her work represents an integration in her life as an Asian American woman, her Christian faith, and her concerns about social justice and an ethic of love and care.
But in her experience, this ability to engage her whole identity, her whole self, and every part of what it means to be Jessica.
It was not encouraged. Instead the all too often fragmentation and compartmentalization of life was present throughout her early life in education.
She calls this an experience of dis consciousness, something that encouraged an unhealthy disconnection between her racial, gender, and cultural identities
I am excited to engage you as a marriage and family therapist and researcher. a woman and an Asian American. And I want to start also by acknowledging that there is no one Asian American culture, that there are many Asian American cultures, and I imagine that we will talk about some generalities that may not actually be appropriate for all Asian Americans, and can you say more about that and where you come from in that perspective?
Okay.
Jessica ChenFeng: trainee In all of my supervisory and training experiences, no one ever engaged my whole identity. So my Asian slash Taiwanese American heritage, cultural offerings, even my gender and my age. And so I didn’t know this, but for years I sort of went through the system,and what some researchers call a disconscious way disconnected from my racial and gender identity.
And so I actually had a lot of anxiety. And so it wasn’t until my own doctoral program. That I was given language and sort of given permission and invitation from faculty to talk about my own racial identity and what it was like being not just Asian American, but a woman. and so because of my own journey of coming into myself and then experiencing what it felt like in my body and the impact it had on my relationships in the direction of health.
For me, it was like, oh my goodness, we have to revisit how we do MFT education, supervision, research. So I think this is why I’ve sort of committed and dedicated a lot of my work now. To speaking to, for example, the development of Asian American marriage and family therapists, the Asian American Christian church and our family systems.
Because I think many of us still live in disconscious states and not by anyone’s individual fault or reason, but within our history and our system, things are structured in a way where I never learned about, know, the history of Asian American racialization. And once I knew that my experience was unique, but also not the only one.
I was part of a larger collective. I think there’s a, a validation and a being known and seen that I needed and that I hope to give to students. Yeah.
Pam King: That’s awesome. That’s really helpful. I think you’re even naming this in the context of a podcast is really helpful for our listeners who may not have the opportunity to be your doctoral student, but to have validated the complexity of their racial, gender, age, those aspects of their identity.
And I look forward to unpacking more of that
As my long-term listeners know, I ask every guest what thriving means to them. Jessica’s response depicting a life that can thrive even in the midst of stress. A life of open and wholeheartedness sets up a recurring theme in our conversation about a constant attitude of seeking wholeness and thriving, especially in the midst of difficulty and brokenness in our various relationships.
Something I ask all my guests is what is thriving to you?
Jessica ChenFeng: so I
I’m not sure if other people have this idea of thriving, but I think in. Immigrant communities sometimes, like the Asian American community, a vision of thriving is like living out the Asian American dream, right?
Like, you know, this post migration reality of.You know, we’ve made it, we’re financially,stable. We’ve got a family, we’re raising our kids in those like safe neighborhood.and like sort of a peaceful life.
Pam King: You
Jessica ChenFeng: difficulty, relational stress.
And I guess the question I ask myself is, could we still be thriving, even if life is often stressful? And I think the answer is yes. So to answer your question, I think of thriving as both this internal state and a relational reality that while I am still encountering a stressful day in my case, a three year old daughter who woke up in the middle of the night multiple times this week and a very full work week, right?
That I feel like I’m thriving because I’m living my life with an open heart. An open mind and my relationships are meaningful.
Pam King: I’d love to ask you, from your very holistic perspective, what your goal or hopes are for either, your clients that you see in therapy or for your students or for just people in general, what is your vision of, of what they should become?
It’s an invitation to, speak to that from either, you know, a marriage and family systems perspective, or a particular Asian American perspective, both and however you want to take that. Or personal, like in your own life, but I’m, I’m kind of interested in nuances.
I want to, invite you to offer what your hope for people is.
Jessica ChenFeng: Yeah, I love this question. one of my favorite Bible verses is John 10, 10, and Jesus says, came to give life, life to the full. And I think the longing we all have to live life to the full, right? Whatever that means. I think it’s sort of defined differently in different social contexts and spaces.
But the question you asked, I think about that verse. And I also think about something in the MFT field . that Every family system is embedded in racial systems, gender systems, right?
Of patriarchy or whatever, fill in the blank. And so I personally believe that our move toward life to the full, a state of,Not, not like the American version of freedom, but what Jesus talks about in. freedom and living in a way where we’re free to serve God fully out of who we are. I do think it requires us to be able to look at layers of systems to be able to see this third order lens, which is, for example,I’ve done a lot of learning continue to about my own family system, right?
You know, the history of my parents, what their parenting style is like, how that shapes me and my sister, whatever, all these wonderful things that have really shaped our family. the layer that really led me to live life more fully, like I mentioned earlier, is. Wow, what was my parents migration history?
How was that connected to the history of migration of other Asians and Asian Americans across time? What were the shared racialized experiences of Asians from the 1600s until now, right? Why did those shift or not change over time in the United States? And How come in my Asian American church upbringing, patriarchy was such a big part of church life, right?
Like when I developed that awareness and went to therapy, unpacked it a bit myself. Now I feel like I get to have open eyes and open hearts and live life more fully because I understand relationally when I’m activated or triggered, or I’m having a reaction to someone. I’m not just thinking, Oh, that person is mean, or they’re being fill in the blank, or their family must be like this.
I’m thinking, Oh, I’m curious. What about their connection to their gender, racial identity, or this, you know, intense political space that lends them to this sort of engagement. And I think, I’m able to have a more Christ like posture. Rather than judge the person as an individual, I understand them in context.
So, so for me, it’s really deepened my relationships. So my hope is in teaching, as we unpack it over the years, the students get to learn themselves how to see the world, see people and see God with this sort of third order lens. Yeah.
Pam King: That’s awesome. I very much appreciate the metaphor of a lens.
One thing I find our listeners, are very interested in is, is identity. Who am I? Who am I becoming? How is that connected to others? And thinking about this lens metaphor that you’ve offered, I’m, I’m wondering, what particular aspects of the lens are helpful for people to understand who they are and who they’re becoming.
Jessica ChenFeng: Yeah. Yeah. Such a beautiful question. I think there’s such a longing in all of us to continue to be formed into the people God wants us to be and the people we want to be for our loved ones.if I can, Sort of sidestep and reference. There’s a theoretical orientation that I’ve been trained out of, and I continue to teach and apply called socio emotional relationship therapy.
The acronym is CERT, S E R T. So, CERT was developed, out of Loma Linda university by my former faculty and research advisors. But it’s a model that looks at gender in. therapy. And one of the values is mutuality. And the assumption of this model is that when couples come to see us as therapists, all couples long for a mutual relationship, right?
I think we always ask the question, um, one of the values of CERT is mutuality. Is this something that you both agree on? And everyone says yes, of course, right? And so I think of mutuality as critical for Becoming the people we want to be in relationship. and I think as a MFT, we’re always relationally minded.
And so how do I feel about who I am and how I show up in my relationship to Pam, my relationship, my kids, my spouse, my students. and I think who I’m wanting to be is always asking how mutual is this relationship. And are there things I’m doing that add to that mutuality? Are there things I’m doing that maybe take away from it?
but Who we are and who we want to be and who we’re moving toward. I do think of mutuality as a, for me, a very strong underlying value.
Pam King: It should go without saying that mutuality is essential in a marriage or long-term intimate relationship, but sadly, so many relationships suffer from an imbalance of power dynamics. So many of the ways we’re socialized by our ethnic heritage, religious community, and convictions, and even our socioeconomic class, not to mention the particularities of our personal and family history, these all prime us to inhabit a particular place in an intimate relationship.
mutuality means expressing what you need and the other receiving it.
Mutuality means balanced influence back and forth between partners.
Mutuality means a genuine ebb and flow of vulnerability.
Jessica explained how the flow of emotional power shapes our relationships
Jessica, for our listeners who might be calling to mind relationships they are in, whether it’s a life partner, a marriage, a friendship, a sibling relationship, how might you guide them on like what’s criteria or how do they know if a relationship is mutual?
maybe what feelings might indicate it’s not. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica ChenFeng: The conversations in our society these days around power sometimes can be activating for people because it’s sort of like a static power over someone else sort of conversation.
This is a different definition of power, right? it’s a relational type of power. And so, for example,
Pam King: Uh,
Jessica ChenFeng: this. We, we work hard on our own marital dynamics, right? And we both grew up in cultural systems where patriarchy was very strong.
And one of the things I love about my husband is that he’s an educator and he was trained in spaces where feminism, having strong female leaders, bosses was a part of his experience. So in, in his mind, He values. Supporting women, listening to women being influenced by them. And then you grew up in this sort of Taiwanese heritage where it may not have been modeled.
So one of the ways I’ve been socialized as a woman, and I would say Asian American woman is that I’m always noticing what other people need, what they’re feeling, and then attending to those needs. So the way that it affects the home structure is husband.
I’m working from home. He comes home and I noticed his mood and then I pivot based on his mood. I might do this or not say this or attend to the kids in this way. So in that particular dynamic, we would say the flow of power is moving from my husband to me because the person in that relational dynamic.
with less power, so to speak, has to always notice the person with a bit more relational power in order to adapt. So with that in mind, I wanted to talk about four attributes of mutuality that couples can think about. I think this applies in all kinds of relationships. Um, this was created, first of all, for couples though.
the first thing I’ll talk about is what we call mutual attunement, So the example I give, I’m attuning to my husband noticing his needs, right? But mutual attunement is, is there a space at a time where he’s noticing my needs? When and where does that happen? It doesn’t mean that it’s always happening all the time on both partners ends, but am I being attentive to and responsive to the person I love’s experience? In this model, it’s very rare for the flow of power in a heterosexual relationship for it not to be where there’s more male power, right?
It’s just the way that genders are socialized. there’s a piece where women are Taught and shaped to notice the needs of others, the emotional needs. So there’s a lot of that as part of this conversation. So mutual attunement, noticing each other’s needs. I think a big one is mutual influence.
So is there a willingness for me to accommodate. the preferences of my spouse, of my child, of my colleague, am I willing to be changed by them? So, actually John and Julie Gottman, they talk about this, right? They’re these, psychologists, researchers on long term marital satisfaction. they found something very similar.
similar, which is in couples where there is long term marital satisfaction. One of the greatest indicators of that is if the male partner is willing to receive influence from their female partner. And an example is, Let’s say, we’re having a conversation about where to eat for dinner.
And my husband’s like, Oh, I feel like eating maybe some Mexican food tonight’s his favorite. He loves street tacos. And then I say, well, I’m not really feeling that. Is it okay if we go get some pho, right? Let’s go get some noodles. This is a basic example, but he hears me. my idea and is willing to change his position as a result of it, right?
That’s a small example of receiving influence. So when he says, Oh yeah, of course, I can put aside my preferences, my needs, my way of seeing something in order to attune to you, to receive your influence. That’s huge in any relationship, right? listeners can imagine this in the workplace. I know a lot of women often feel this way.
You express a concern, you express what you need, uh, maybe at work, maybe, you know, with a partner, with friends the feeling of being invisible. No one heard it. No one responded. No one thought it was significant. That is an example of that system or that person not being able to receive influence from you.
and it’s minimizing. It’s painful.
Pam King: Oh my gosh, this is great. Yes. So what is the third aspect of mutual relationships?
Jessica ChenFeng: Yeah. Great. the third asset, we call it mutual vulnerability, right? And so, and I, the caveat I want to mention is vulnerability is different across cultures. So, and it may feel and look different with different couples, different relational dynamics, but the general gist of it is that it’s a spirit of openness that we are curious about.
We are also self honest, right? So we often think about vulnerability as like, Oh, I’m willing to share my emotions. I can be open about what I feel and think. It’s also vulnerable to receive feedback to say, I care about what you think and feel. Maybe about me, maybe about our relationship that takes vulnerability.
And I would also say courage, right? So when we can admit our mistakes, we can express our needs to our partner. And it’s sort of goes both ways. That’s what we call a mutual vulnerability.
Pam King: I expect, that being nonjudgmental in the context of that vulnerability is very important.
Jessica ChenFeng: yes, yes, for sure. That is definitely like as for people who utilize this model, part of the intervention processes, right? Because sometimes behavior that looks judgmental is grounded in some gendered patterns. a male partner stepping in and saying, no, that’s not true. Right. Like, um, whateverthe certain model unpacks it with a gendered lens, Or if a female partner is defensive about something or critical, it could be coming out of a place of powerlessness. so that’s a whole nother conversation, but the nonjudgmental posture is so important in order to support your partner in. Developing vulnerability.
Pam King: for example, are both people doing what’s necessary to maintain the relationship, right? I think one of the challenges oftentimes when couples come into therapy isthe way that people learn from media or whatever’s out there in the ether about relationships is like, what are my My needs.
Jessica ChenFeng: Are you meeting my needs? And am I meeting your needs? That model of, sort of both people trying to meet each other’s needs. I think there’s a third space to consider, which is the relationship. Are both people seeing that the relationship is this third entity that both people are shaping and attending to?
So that there’s both a self, but there’s a collective focus, right? So, an example is like the home space or caring for children or our elders are both spouses or partners thinking about the kids. dental schedule appointments, the doctors, all the things required in the home, right? the relational responsibility, is household tasks.
It’s figuring out dates, the quality of the relationship, who makes the call to the therapist. To schedule an appointment for the relationship’s well being. So,every couple’s different, but I think these are worth asking, because it helps us sort of gauge where are we? We care about mutuality.
Where are we in terms of moving toward it?
Pam King: Absolutely. No, thank you. That’s such practical guidance on, how. People have to both tend to the relationship, you were saying, as a third entity, where people can often get in that hurt defensive posture of they’re not tending to me. and it’s not just obviously about the two me’s, but it’s also tending to the we.
And how do we support this relationship? Not just the individual well being of our partner or spouse, but also to the health of our relationship.
Taking those four very, very helpful, aspects of mutuality together, I could imagine that there are both some individual strengths, that need to be cultivated, like self awareness, in order to be vulnerable, or humility to be curious.
and there might also be some personal or psychological vulnerabilities or even personality disorders that could get in the way of being able to participate mutually. So I’d love to hear you talk about, what strengths or psychological capacities individuals might need or, or desire to cultivate so that they could participate in more mutual relationships.
Jessica ChenFeng: Yeah, no, you’re definitely right, Pam. in order to sort of do the work of moving toward mutuality, I think there’s some
Pam King: Okay.
Jessica ChenFeng: I will say, so I’m thinking about your listeners. I’m sure there are people listening and they’re thinking these traits, these ideas are really wonderful.
And, the relational dynamic I’m in, I’m fearful of having these conversations or sort of engaging in this way.what I want to say is this model, the therapist who’s well trained in it, Is the one who’s able to hold space because when we talk about issues of gender and power and as they relate to mutuality, they’re very loaded.
They’re very painful for both partners. And so when things are in a dicey season in a couple’s life, I wouldn’t necessarily encourage like explicit conversation and say, Oh, let’s try to be more like this. I do think it’s always helpful and important to have a clinician kind of guiding that process.
but generally speaking, the posture of humility, like you talked about, and I think a humility which is It’s both self and other oriented, right? I do think in our United States culture at large, it’s not hard to develop a self oriented focus, right? and understandably, like in survival mode and many seasons of our lives, it’s important to attend to ourselves.
Many of us are working on that and we need to, right? I think the part that we can all grow in myself included is always being able to see the other, right? So if me as a woman, I am always attending to other people, but dismissing myself, this is not a mutuality that I’m fostering in my life. The other way is true.
If I am always just focused on myself, but not able to sense what someone else is feeling or notice what someone else needs, it’s hard to develop mutuality. And I think humility is required for the shifting of our posture so that it’s both self and other. And I think, you know, one of the greatest commandments, right?
Likelove your neighbor as yourself. It’s this both and we need to be able to see who we are as God made us to be Celebrate that love ourselves And how do I love my spouse my children my colleague my friends? and I think it’s sort of that posture of humility Putting ourselves in another’s shoes, The classic conversation on empathy, It’s this both and
Pam King: Um, I, right on this concept of the reciprocating self, how we ultimately find that life in the fullest when we grow as more differentiated, whole persons, but in ever deepening, neutral relationships with one another.
So that dynamic of, of, I and thou or you and me is so important and can be so hard to balance. And I, I do hear how you say that gender norms and cultural norms, often bias one partner towards being more accommodating perhaps than the other. But that is, becomes complicit in the lack of mutuality.
When we don’t offer ourselves, in a relationship and become, you know, pattern attuning to the other and not ourselves, that that can be problematic.
I want to reiterate one thing you said earlier, um, when you said if you’re in a relationship that is in a dicey season, like in a hard time of marital stress, which is, common to every marriage.
All marriages go through stressful times. If that’s the case, maybe under normal circumstances or relationships that aren’t so strained, that it is wonderful to pursue vulnerable mutuality and, mutual responsibility. but that these conversations around power can be very triggering for people and very challenging in a very strained dynamic.
It’s easy to think about our personal relationships as somehow impervious to the winds of culture or prevailing societal norms, but societal factors impact our relationships. Jessica’s perspective on faith and justice provide a very important opportunity for us to address power and privilege and the ways they have damaged marriages and families slowly eroding a relational connections from generation to generation. But in Jessica’s view, our belovedness in God’s eyes transcends cultural norms and places us in inequality that can lead to thriving and joyful relationships of giving and receiving
Jessica ChenFeng: I do think it’s important to center what our Christian faith means to us in light of these conversations.
So. The larger U. S. Society when we hear about it in the media. I think that’s a huge part of where this is modeled. topics of race, gender and power. can lead to a lot of contention, right? It’s the reality, right? So people with, you know, what we call more dominant identities, white individuals, men, it’s a natural put off.
It’s like talking about power and privilege? I don’t feel like I have it. I, in my own relationships, I feel a lot of pain. I don’t feel very powerful. I don’t feel like I live with a lot of privilege. And I think it’s really important, from a Christian perspective to say, I don’t believe these are God given realities about who we actually are.
No one in God’s, Eyes actually has more or less power, right? We are all beloved with our fullness of self before god, but in our social structures, right and jesus talks about the poor, for example, but there are clear hierarchies in Jesus’s time that were socially created, and I think every civilization has those.
And so when you talk about cultural norms, I think it’s important to remember that we are God’s beloved. living in time within a particular cultural norm, which is the United States context in the 2020s. and so we have to discern what are those cultural norms, what we call discourses, various isms that shape the realities of people’s lives.
And so when I, Talk about all of my Asian American clients over the years have had countless encounters of racism, right? Do we believe that? Do we go to the research and be like, Oh yeah, for sure. If we’re not aware of it, will we, I’m speaking we as therapists, but also listeners, lay people who are part of churches, in loving relationships with people of all different racial backgrounds, right?
Take the time to understand, well, my racial identity, and I’ll give an example, as an Asian American, is different from my Black siblings. And how do I make sense of their racialized experience and do my part in learning the history of Black and African Americans in the U. S.? And how that’s distinctly different than Asian Americans, right?
And so, I think the cultural norms are both like Historically shaped, but their current realities. And I think the Christian perspective is yes, we hold a, I see you, sister, brother in Christ as God’s beloved. And I believe and know that you have maybe a racialized or gendered experience that I don’t know or understand, but I want to.
understand it more and unpack it. Yeah.
Pam King: It’s so very helpful. Thank you. And I think it’s helpful to make this explicit because these interpersonal dynamics also draw on the cultural and racial dynamics so that we are not just dealing with two people, but we are dealing with these systems of influence, as you mentioned earlier,
Jessica ChenFeng: I think the challenge around the language of things like power and privilege is that it individualizes the conversation. When I think that we’re talking about systems. And all systems of power harm everyone. And what I mean by this is in terms of a gender perspective, right?
Related to the certain model over the years, when we work with couples and we see male power it gives men, they don’t feel good in their relationships. They actually feel a lot of pain. The harm is that it takes away from all of our relationships.
And what I mean by that is the challenges men tend to have around receiving influence, noticing the other, right? that is harmful to themselves and to the person that they love, right? And that system of power.that is a conversation we have more of, but this is where I think it’s important racially.
I think this is what breaks down the conversation often is because it’s like a us versus them, men versus women. But at the end of the day, these systems of power harm everyone. And if the hope. Like we talked about is to live life to the full as followers of Jesus that we see each other as Potentially harmed by these systems and how do we lift each other up
I mean, John 1010 was what I was going to talk about in relationship to thriving, right? Like, I mean, I do think that’s all of our hope is to live in a way that’s thriving. to be able to know who we are, to access who we are, in different spaces and to live out of that.
That’s kind of the language I would give it.
Pam King: In accessing who we are and this comment about thriving or being mutually engaged in relationships, we have to bring ourselves. And for either clients that you work with or people that may be listening, do you have a practice that might encourage them, um, to know themselves more fully, to embrace themselves in their entirety?
Jessica ChenFeng: yes,
I think sometimes when people hear this prompt of like knowing who you are, right, people think, Oh, it’s this big thing and I need to know all these parts of who I am, it could feel really daunting. What I want to say is it really begins in very small steps. And oftentimes, our brains are attuned to our pain or what we call like quote, unquote, negative sensations more easily, right?
It’s normal. It’s a part of our survival mechanism. I think what’s harder to do is be attuned To who we are in terms of what feels good in my body, right? Where’s their pleasant sensation? Where is my body feeling relaxed today? Why is that there? What is it connected to? So I’m happy to sort of lead us through connecting and attuning to those parts of our body so that it can, we can be more open to having a conversation with our own bodies and allowing our bodies to inform us.
And I don’t know about you, Pam, but I feel like many of the contexts I grew up in, especially as a woman. are very disembodying, right? Like learning not to trust your gut because you’re trying to please other people or whatever, right? And so I think the practice of attuning to your own body is a part of becoming more of your whole self.
Pam King: Absolutely. 100%. Amen. I would be so grateful for you to guide us through that.
Jessica ChenFeng:
Pam King: Okay.
Jessica ChenFeng: Yeah. So if you’re safely seated somewhere and if you can safely close your eyes, I invite you to do that.
And I’m going to, Do this myself and just sit relaxed in your seat or if you’re laying down somewhere and just notice your body from head to toe where there are pleasant sensations in your body.
So just tracking from your head down through your neck and chest to your arms, your torso, legs and feet, if there’s a part of your body that’s saying, Hey, notice me, I’m feeling okay today. And
Pam King: so
Jessica ChenFeng: that part of your body and the sensation of either it’s pleasant, or maybe it’s neutral,
Pam King: and get started
Jessica ChenFeng: shape, does that pleasant sensation have a shape?
Pam King: to
Jessica ChenFeng: a texture,
Pam King: and
Jessica ChenFeng: weight,
Pam King: started
Jessica ChenFeng: or a color.
And as you allow this part of your body to communicate to you and attuning to the color, the shape, the form of it, allow that color to start growing and expanding through your body.
Most people, the pleasant sensations have a sort of warmth to it. Maybe it has a temperature to it, but just imagine that it is expanding through the rest of your body, through your limbs. the top of your head to the tips of your toes
and through our noses. Let’s breathe in that pleasant sensation. Breathe out.
Pam King: Okay.
Jessica ChenFeng: how your body’s responding.
And just lean in and either imagine or actually giving yourself a hug. I’m just modeling this on screen for people who see the screen, but using our arms. Sort of like giving yourself a soothing hug down our shoulders and to our elbows. Breathing in the color, the warmth, the texture of this pleasant sensation. Just releasing and allowing our bodies to sink into it.
So this is just a few minutes and as you are ready to pause this practice and kind of come back to whatever space you’re in, gently open your eyes.
Some of the things we can notice are, wow, is there a part of my body that is feeling positive, relaxed, that I wasn’t attending to before? I wonder, like myself, it was my stomach. I felt like my, my gut, my stomach was really relaxed today, or like right now. I had lunch not that long ago. So yeah, I’m curious, Pam, how that was for you.
Pam King: was fantastic, a shocking sensation of just delight at the tip of my nose. I’ll I never think about my nose, but that’s what came to me and it was just very delightful and yellow and sparkly and just, you know, inviting that, lightness, to pervade my body was wonderful and to chase out, you know, to take up the room where maybe darkness was or, tightness was, was really wonderful.
Wonderful. And so edifying to think about something positive in my body
Jessica ChenFeng: yeah. I love that. That’s wonderful.
Pam King: One of the ways Jessica Fosters integration in her own life is the expertise she’s cultivated in understanding mental health in Asian American culture.
As we acknowledged earlier, that’s not just one all encompassing thing, but rather a varied and beautiful and very distinct set of cultures and ethnicities and geographies.
I wanted to hear and learn more from her about some of the issues she’s noticing today that impact the different psychological and emotional experiences of various Asian American cultures. She focused on the question of emotional self-control, which might express itself in the form of withholding or hiding what you really feel because of perceived relational pressures or cultural norms
Jessica ChenFeng: So it’s fascinating.
Think there’s a perception in the United States. States that Asian Americans have a degree of what we call emotional self control. And in some spaces, this is like withholding your display of emotion, right? For various reasons. and so some people. Have maybe a stereotype about Asians and Asian Americans.
Like they’re stoic. They’re not that expressive. they don’t have either loud or high emotion. and many of us know that in our countries of origin, this is like the farthest thing from the truth. And there is something about post migration realities. I think of, Asian Americans. And their relationship to the larger culture, which I think, you know, we can say is mostly white and other racial spaces where emotional self control is a part of survival, right?
That if people know what I think or feel or say, there are a lot of implications or consequences to that. Positive, negative, whatever, right? So I think part of the ways that Asian Americans are racialized in terms of this conversation about emotion, is related to that a little bit. And I think for any listeners who are Asian and Asian American, to know that if you feel some of those pressures or tensions, that you’re not alone in that,
there is also truth in terms of some Asian American cultures, where emotional self control is a value, right? That I don’t necessarily show to you what I’m feeling because it might hurt you, or it might cause you or someone somewhere to lose face.And it’s, and so I’m protecting that.
So I’m withholding what I feel, at least not showing it for the sake of caring about the relationship.
Pam King: So in talking about interpersonal mutuality and that value, how might you engage, the topic of expression of emotion in the context of mutuality?
When, when people say, what’s a good leader,
Okay.
Jessica ChenFeng: when they look at gender and representation in politics, a lot of discussion of overly emotional women who are unqualified for their work. So this idea that emotions are not necessarily valued in our larger society, that discourse out in the air informs how we internalize emotions, right?
So then when we come back to the relationship, women maybe. refrain or self censor ourselves from expressing emotion sometimes because we’re afraid it’ll be received by our male partner in this way or that way or misunderstood. I’m going to be too much for this person. all of those beliefs are connected to this, I would say, misunderstanding of emotion and its value in our relationships and understanding of self.
I also think that people who don’t have to think much about how and when their emotion shows up. That’s a form of relational power, right? The fact that if I’m upset, I can just show that I’m upset. If I’m displeased with something or whatever, fill in the blank. And I’m not thinking a whole lot about how my emotional state affects my children, my partner, my colleagues, the people who work under me, right?
that I would invite people in those spaces to consider how might your emotional state be influencing others, right? So, those are some of the things around the complexity of emotion. I’m going to go on another layer, which is like an Asian American relational ethics piece, and I’m going to go by way of talking about my relationship, my father, who I love dearly, and I’m grateful is still alive and functioning.
Well, my, my dad. When we have conversations, I can feel what he’s feeling without him verbalizing it. Culturally, it’s not typical for a first generation Asian American father to say, Oh, I’m feeling X, Y, Z, right? You can just sense the emotion, but If I’m hurt by something he says or bothered by it, it would not be relationally appropriate across generations, across gender, all these sorts of things for me to say, Oh my gosh, dad, like why, why did you say that?
That’s so hurtful, Because it’s so hard to articulate out of my love for my father. I would not want him to feel bad about anything he said or did because of the way it affected me. However, because. As a therapist daughter, I’ve done a lot of work and while something may be hurtful, I have the awareness for it not to sort of tear at my core sense of self, right?
So then I worked through that piece, but what I offer back to my dad is maybe a really thought through response out of respect for him, but I’m not dismissing myself. And when you mentioned earlier, Pam, this differentiated self, it’s because I know who I am. I know who my dad is and I’m making a deliberate decision about responding to him.
Whereas I would say a Western individualistic society. Or individualistic therapist would tell me as a client. Well, why couldn’t you express that to your dad? You should be honest with him about how you feel, right? Whereas that would cause a major rupture in our relational dynamic.
Pam King: You’re illustrating how much there is to navigate. and how much emotional conscientiousness there is.
And this reality of different relational expectations between generations that have cultural influences are that there is just more work and more navigating that needs to be done.
Jessica ChenFeng: yes, yes, for sure.
Pam King: To understand the impact of race and ethnicity and really gender as well on psychological and emotional health. We need to have the patience and sense of felt responsibility and accountability to learn the histories and the stories of those very different from us.
That’s the path toward the joy and meaning of mutual relationships across difference
We’ve been talking a bit implicitly or maybe explicitly about how race and gender impact relationships, but there, there’s a mentality out there. And I think a lot of people are confused today.
Some people have been brought up to say, I don’t see people, in their racial distinction or their particularities. I see them as people. And there’s some that are trying to actually understand more of the nuances. I, I’d love, for your perspective on how to guide people, to being interculturally sensitive and, and, and relate more effectively to people.Hmm. I
Jessica ChenFeng: piece is to be in meaningful mutual relationships across difference. And of course, I think it’s critically important for all of us, like, like we talked about earlier to learn, to unpack, parts of our country’s histories, how these histories have affected different communities racially.
The first part of me wants to respond to that from a, as though I have a neutral stance. The reality is that I don’t, right? When I hear statements like that, quite frankly, it’s hurtful, right? My entire life lived in California is a racialized existence. People see my phenotype, they assume whatever about my race and whatever assumptions they’ve grown up with.
When I say that, it doesn’t mean people are bad. Likeit’s that all of us are socialized in our context to believe certain things, to not understand other things, and I think it’s our shared Duty invitation as a society that longs for a better society to be curious about. Wow. I’ve had this perspective my whole life.
Maybe it’s like, oh, I don’t see race. When I hear that, I think of a really well intentioned white family that did not want to harm anyone. That’s what I hear. I hear this longing to not offend, to not hurt, and to try our best to live in peace. So I hear the really beautiful intentions. And I think this is the yes and.
The and is, well, let’s. Check in with our siblings of color, right? What do they feel about that sort of statement? And I mean, an easy search online, we learned very quickly. Oh, it’s actually a harmful belief system. And these are all the complex reasons why, right? Because my racial identity is something that society interacts with me every day in a particular way.
And a lot of it is painful and traumatizing. And for me to believe and see and care about. other racial communities experiences. this is how we continue to build, I think, a beautiful society together.
Pam King: And going back to mutuality, that if we are to be mutual and know each other in mutuality, we need to understand our particularities and difference. And, and that does include race. and ethnicity and gender and age and that, equipping people with skills to know how to do that, in really affirming ways is important. At a school meeting last night, a gentleman said, at this school, we move at the speed of trust. And I thought that was just a beautiful statement. But how can we build trust?
If, if we don’t even feel known or seen or acknowledged.
Jessica ChenFeng: Yeah.
Pam King: , One thing you’ve brought up a bit throughout the interview is, you have talked about siblings, especially in reference to people different from yourself, and the importance of getting to know people. I’d love to hear you comment more specifically on that.
Okay.
Jessica ChenFeng: my own experience across difference, I will say that in my own friendships, working relationships with people of different racial backgrounds, people of different gender identities and sexual orientations, denominational religious backgrounds. I just think in a day and age where we have so much knowledge being thrown at us, right? Like we can consume all the knowledge, have all the theories, frameworks, ideas, But if they’re not grounded in an encounter with the real human being, with the real life, with experiences to share, like you mentioned earlier, this I, thou connection with someone, I will never know the embodied experience of someone of a different race than myself, right? But I can, Trying my best to love the person and sit in the discomfort of what their reality gives to me and lean into it, And, and keep learning and keep trying. I think it’s such a gift to have these sort of relationships in life where I think this is where real mutuality and trust develops,
So I guess my hope for all of us is that we keep leaning in the direction of Now, courageous conversation with people who we’ve built trust with, that we can engage in vulnerability and receive others vulnerability to attune to others as we hope to be attuned to all of these, attributes of connection, real authentic relational connection, I think is the way to keep growing as a society in love of self and others in authentic ways.
Pam King: Thank you so much.
Jessica ChenFeng: Yeah, thank you, Pam.
Pam King: Jessica ChenFeng’s perspective and expertise on the social and relational dynamics of thriving relationships is a call to integrated personal wholeness and highlights the gift of mutuality in our most intimate relationships, whether romantic or in family life. the key takeaways that I will carry with me from this conversation are the following.
Each of us in the human family is a beloved child of God, and we need to continue to shape society to reflect this foundational truth. The path to meaning and fulfillment in a relationship starts with noticing and acknowledging the flow of emotional power and its destination is mutuality and humility.
Thriving means incorporating all of who we are, especially our heritage and histories, into our love of ourselves, our love of others, and our love of God.
Our intimate relationships need care and attention is a third reality beyond ourselves and our partners.
And finally, thriving means opening our hearts each day, connecting our inner and relational realities and learning to love patiently the multitudes we contain.
Pam King: With and For is a production of the Thrive Center at Fuller Theological Seminary. For more information, visit our website, thethrivecenter.org, where you’ll find all sorts of resources to support your pursuit of wholeness and a life of thriving on purpose. I am so grateful to the staff and fellows of the Thrive Center and our With and For podcast team.
Jill Westbrook is our senior director and producer Lauren Kim is our operations manager. Wren Jeurgensen is our social media graphic designer. Evan Rosa is our consulting producer. And special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology and Marriage and Family Therapy.
I’m your host, Dr. Pam King. Thank you for listening.
Jessica ChenFeng, PhD, LMFT, Associate Professor of MFT
Dr. Jessica ChenFeng is Associate Professor at the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Seminary, and is also Director of the Asian American Well-being Collaboratory at Fuller’s Asian American Center. Prior to her time at Fuller she was a professor at Loma Linda University and California State University, Northridge. Jessica is known for her clinical expertise and scholarship integrating socio-contextual lenses of race, gender, and generation into work with minoritized individuals, families, and communities. In the last few years, her primary clinical focus has been the well-being of physicians, especially through pandemic-related trauma and burnout. She’s co-authored two books, Finding Your Voice as a Beginning Marriage and FamilyTherapist, as well as Asian American Identities, Relationships, and Cultural Legacies: Reflections from Marriage and Family Therapists. She received the 2022 American Family Therapy Academy Early Career Award.
Episode Summary
Meaningful relationships are mutual. Balanced with give and take, equal influence between partners, and a vibrant dance of loving responsiveness and caring attention.
Marriage and Family Therapist and professor Dr. Jessica ChenFeng is calling us toward a more justice-oriented approach to relationships and to mental health and well-being, She invites us to open-hearted and empathic perspective taking, and seeking an integrated wholeness that incorporates all of who we are—highlighting the gift of mutuality in our most intimate relationships in marriage and family life.
In this conversation with Jessica ChenFeng, we discuss:
- The importance of integrated and whole experience of ourselves—allowing racial, gender, and cultural identities to weave together in our sense of vocation and contribution to the world
- The importance of mutuality in relationships—but particularly in marriage and family systems.
- The ways emotional power flows in a relationship and impacts marriage and family dynamics
- The difference between partners focusing on meeting their individual needs and caring for the health of an intimate relationship
- And she offers a guided practical exercise to help us lovingly notice and accept our inner experience with a heart open to justice, vulnerability, and the reminder that we are beloved in the eyes of God.
Show Notes
Episode Highlights
- "Systems of power harm everyone—and to live life to the full, we have to see each other fully."
- "I believe our move toward life to the full requires us to see the world through a third-order lens: not just family systems, but the racial, gender, and societal systems they exist within."
- "Mutuality means not just expressing our needs but being willing to be changed by the needs of others."
- "If we're not attuned to the pleasant sensations in our bodies, we miss the invitations to thrive."
- "Cultural norms are not God-given realities; they are social constructs we are invited to discern and transform."
- "Knowledge without authentic relationship keeps us from truly seeing the embodied experiences of others."
Helpful Links and Resources
- Check out the programs in Marriage & Family Therapy at Fuller School of Psychology www.fuller.edu/school-of-psychology/
- Fuller Asian American Center aac.fuller.edu/
- Socio-Emotional Relationship Therapy (SERT) Overview
- Circle of Care Model Explained
- Positive Psychology and Emotions
- Jeanne Tsai's Research on Culture and Emotion
- Asian American Values Scale Reference
- Race and Trauma Resources
- Jeanne Tsai’s research on culture and emotion – Stanford SPARQ
- John and Julie Gottman Relationship Research
- Asian American Values Scale – Paniagua & Yamada (Academic resource)
Show Notes
- Jessica ChenFeng shares her "yes and" identity as a second-generation Taiwanese American grounded in both math and creativity.
- How earthy aesthetics and connection to nature shape Jessica's professional and personal flourishing.
- The integration of Christian faith with clinical work at Fuller Seminary.
- "Seeing systems of systems" — why thriving requires understanding how race, gender, and cultural forces shape individuals and families.
- Introduction to socio-emotional relationship therapy (SERT) and the value of mutuality in relationships.
- Defining mutuality: mutual attunement, mutual influence, mutual vulnerability, and mutual relational responsibility.
- "Mutuality asks: Are both people tending to the relationship itself?"
- Practical signs of mutual and non-mutual relationships, including emotional attunement and willingness to be influenced.
- The importance of humility and relational awareness in building mutual relationships.
- The Circle of Care model: cultivating healthy relational dynamics through attunement and responsiveness.
- Discerning relational power dynamics in marriages, friendships, and work relationships.
- "Thriving is an open heart, even on a stressful day."
- How emotional self-control in Asian American cultures is often rooted in relational ethics, not personal repression.
- The risk and gift of navigating cross-generational emotional communication in immigrant families.
- Differentiated selfhood: balancing authenticity with cultural respect in relational dynamics.
- Race, culture, and relational healing: why systems of privilege harm everyone.
- "Love your neighbor as yourself" as an ethic for mutual flourishing across racial and cultural difference.
- Building trust by leaning into discomfort and courageous conversations.
- The need for embodied encounters with real people beyond theories of race and difference.
- Mindfulness practice: Jessica leads a guided exercise in attuning to pleasant sensations in the body.
- The transformational power of positive emotions and embodiment for creativity and resilience.
- The relational impact of systemic racialization and why "colorblindness" fails to honor real lived experience.
- Final reflections: How knowing who we are through systemic and relational lenses allows deeper thriving.
- Pam King’s Key Takeaways
- Each of us in the human family is a beloved child of God—and we need to continue to shape society to reflect this foundational truth.
- The path to meaning and fulfillment in a relationship starts with noticing and acknowledging the flow of emotional power, and its destination is mutuality and humility
- Thriving means incorporating all of who we are—our heritage and histories especially—into our love of ourselves, our love of others, and love of God.
- Our intimate relationships need care and attention as a third reality beyond our selves and our partners.
- And finally, thriving means opening our hearts each day, connecting our inner and relational realities, and learning to love patiently the multitudes we all contain.
About the Thrive Center
- Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
- Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
- Follow us on X @thrivecenter
- Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter
About Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy.  Follow her @drpamking.About With & For
- Host: Pam King
- Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
- Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
- Social Media Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
- Consulting Producer: Evan Rosa
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