This transcript was generated automatically. It may contain errors.
Pam King: I’m Dr. Pam King, and you’re listening to With For, a podcast that explores the depths of psychological science and spiritual wisdom to offer practical guidance toward spiritual health, wholeness, and thriving on purpose.
Jill Westbrook: Hello, dear listeners, Jill Westbrook here. We’re coming up on season two of Within Four in January, and that’s a great feeling.
Pam recently joined her longtime friend and entrepreneur and inspiring podcast host Nada Jones. Nada is the founder and CEO of Liberty Road, a podcast and organization for entrepreneurial women focused on growth, wisdom, sharing stories, and finding purpose.
She has a regular podcast where women in the middle third of their lives share their journeys of self discovery. We wanted to share this episode because these two friends talk about a particular chapter in life for women, the middle third, where we are pulled in so many directions. Nada and Pam discuss Pam’s definition of thriving, what might get in the way of thriving during this challenging period of life.
And Pam shares resources from psychology and spirituality that can provide for people to grow and support others. And Pam describes three pillars for a thriving life, individual, relational, and aspirational. Nada and Pam discuss Pam’s definition of thriving, what might get in the way of thriving during this challenging period of life.
And Pam shares resources from psychology and spirituality that can provide for people to grow and support others.
One final note before we jump into today’s episode. Starting December 1st, we’re going to shift our podcast release days to Sundays.
We’ll Why? Because of the Advent tradition where every Sunday of Advent, we meditate, pray, and reflect with a new candle, lighting the way toward hope, peace, joy, and the ultimate love of Christmas. so in that spirit, we’ll be releasing Sunday podcast reflections from Pam on the four virtues of Advent.
Hope, peace, joy, and love. We’re excited to share this journey with you. Hope you enjoy this episode with Pam and Nada.
Nada Jones: Pursuing your future doesn’t end at 40. In fact, it may mark the beginning of knowing who you are, what you’re capable of, and what you really want. But knowing what’s next and how to get there can be a challenge, especially when old narratives play on repeat. Liberty Road is here to share stories so that you can consider your possibilities, pursue your purpose, and move into your future with intention.
I’m your host, Nada Jones, and we’re here to listen, learn, and liberate dreams. One episode at a time.
Well, hello, Liberty listeners. Welcome to another episode of Liberty Road. Today, you guys get to hear from one of my nearest and dearest, Dr. Reverend Pamela King, Reverend Dr. Pamela King. She’s going to correct me. And Her work in the Thrive Center and her newly launching podcast, which you’ll be able to hear when this goes live because hers will go live as well.
So can’t wait to unpack all of that with you guys and with her today. Pam, welcome to the show.
Pam King: Thank you, Nada. You know, I’m very thrilled to be here.
Nada Jones: It’s an honor to have you here and you and I have been doing some things together for some time. I’ve had some big events in the entrepreneurial space and now in the midlife space.
And you have kindly joined as an expert in that space talking about thriving and what thriving means. But I’m really interested today in learning more about that. the work you’re doing to expand that outside of your ivory tower and into all of our homes and all of our ears through your podcast. But also let’s back up just a little bit and talk to us about your work at the Thrive Center.
Like, give us a little context. What is Thrive Center? Reverend doctor or Dr. Reverend? Reverend doctor. Technically Reverend doctor. Okay.
Pam King: Yeah,
Nada Jones: we’re gonna get to how you become that too. But What is the Thrive Center? Let’s start there. And then what’s
Pam King: your role there? Awesome. So yes, the Thrive Center is both a research center and And also a resource development center, we do psychological science or psychologically informed research and develop resources, tools and practices for people actually to pursue a journey of thriving in their own life.
So we are a psychology forward center that is very interested in the role of spirituality in people’s lives. So we are at the intersection of psychological science and spiritual wisdom. First of all, to
Nada Jones: be totally transparent, you and I have known each other for 30 years. Um, so I actually know the answer to this question, but I think it’s important to give our audience some background.
That is a very rare intersection, um, to find. People who are studying in that space, researching in that space, and then creating tools for us from that space. So I just want to acknowledge that that is unusual. The work that you’re doing, the work that Thrive Center is doing is unique and is being appreciated and lauded as something that is unique.
Tell us about the importance of that and being a pioneer in that space or a pioneer at that intersection.
Pam King: Sure. Well, there’s kind of two kind of pioneering aspects of the work of Thrive. As a psychologist, the field of psychology often focuses on what goes wrong with people. We hear a lot about mental health issues, and some of the irony of the term of mental health is that it’s actually defined by mental illness, or pathology, or depression, or anxiety.
So, in the last couple decades, there’s been a pendulum swing to not only consider what goes wrong with people, but also to consider what can go right with people and how we can nurture strengths within people to have more meaningful, whole, healthy, joyful lives, not just be free of mental illness. So our vision of like psychological health has changed.
It’s not just absence of illness, but a presence of strengths. Joy, virtues, et cetera, with that pivot has also come an explicit interest in spirituality. And the funny thing is, as humans, all of us realize like, wow, yeah, we have some spiritual inclinations. Like, you know, we all, um, came to the end of ourselves in 2020, whether we liked it or not and realize like, there’s got to be something more.
People have pursued this historically through religion, political groups, other alliances, and in this day and age, there’s so many shifts in these kind of transcendent realms, like understanding a psychology of, of spirituality, of how people find meaning in their lives. how they have a sense of belonging and connection, what their ultimate sources of inspiration are is really important.
And that area of study is actually newer within psychology. For some reason, there has been kind of a historic rift between religiously or spiritual things and psychological science, but that in the last couple decades is beginning to come together. So the work that Thrive does and the research that we do.
is very unique in that we really focus on the strengths of people, and this idea of thriving, and how people flourish, and the role of spiritual health in that.
Nada Jones: And the application of the Thrive Center is to inform other institutions, to inform, tell us. Great
Pam King: question. So my personal vision dream hope is to really catalyze a movement of human thriving and There are a lot of centers of work of people studying flourishing well being mental health thriving There are less centers of, and I don’t mean centers like an institution or institute, but just centers of activity around interventions or practices or tools that can actually really help people thrive.
That is beginning to happen. You can go to the local bookshelf and you’ll find journals, gratitude journals. There’s now a beautiful set of purpose, joy, balance, creativity journals. And these are great. Um, the work that we do at Thrive is really research based. backed and informed. So it’s not just sentimental thoughts, but it’s really informed by either the research that my colleagues and I at Thrive have done or, or others more, more broadly.
Nada Jones: That answers.
Pam King: Okay. That answers
Nada Jones: the question. Now I could tell you were looking at that. Did I get it? Let me back up. How do you Reverend Dr. Pamela King, how do you describe thriving?
Pam King: Love that question. That’s like the million dollar question. Yeah. So my one liner, very short quip would be like a thriving life is a life on purpose.
So living purposefully is, is thriving. When people often think of thriving, they think of vigorous growth, often excellence in our culture, often success, which could be financially or climbing a ladder. And I don’t, that’s not where I’m coming from. So living a life on purpose is, is really, we hear this. I use this mantra a lot, you know, it’s, it’s not about the destination.
It’s about the journey. Um, and that’s so true, but I’ll also add purpose is not just a journey, but it’s also about the direction your life is headed. So one of the benefits of spending a lot of my years in philosophy and theology as well as psychology is the consideration of like the ultimate goals of life.
And we realize that for humans, there are actually things that are more meaningful than others. And we all know, after wasting away a good hour of, you know, flitting through screens and social media, that that’s not what we were created for. But rather, things like really deep, personal connection, being in relationships where we’re known and loved.
Where we know and love others. Pursuing things we’re deeply passionate about. Whether it’s enabling women, um, to live meaningful, exhilarating, intentional lives in middle age. Or enabling people to thrive, in my words, and really living out your values. That’s what I do. Where I find that people thrive and so I locate purpose at the intersection of those kind of three strands of individual growth and development, uh, relational connectedness in growth, and also being aligned with our deepest aspirations and values.
And when we’re pursuing those, not always at the same rate, there’s always decline and loss, but adapting so that we can pursue those things that matter most. That is when we thrive.
Nada Jones: Yeah, I think the audience will hear in that answer, the reason why I’ve had you come into both, again, entrepreneurial spaces that I created and now midlife spaces, because we are very, although we come at it from different places, we’re very aligned in what does it mean?
Um, and what is the value of living? into your purpose, living a life of purpose and being intentional about how we move through our days, our months, our years, because the time is passing. The time is passing anyway. And I think one of the reasons I wanted to have this conversation with you at the beginning of the year is so many of us in this middle third journey, as I like to call it, are looking for that purpose and looking for.
focus and intention and meaning. And I think, uh, the work that you’re doing at the Thrive Center and the work that you’ll be bringing to us through your podcast will help to equip us in that way. So let’s get to that. Talk about the podcast and why with all the things you have your And you’re obviously very busy.
Why add a podcast to the mix? What was that all about?
Pam King: That’s a great question. Cause my hands are busy. This whole thing of like being a researcher and professor, and then there’s that Reverend gig, parent, wife, adding something like this that I actually don’t get academic. street cred or credit for which that’s my primary job is as a faculty person is a really good question.
Um, and I think that just comes from my heart is like in the deepest part of my being, I really want to enable people to thrive in a very holistic way. And live more fully into who they are. Living more authentically, living with deeper connection and, and with deeper purpose. And it feels like in this day and age that you, podcasts are a great way to get information out.
And also sort of my philosophy or approach to my work is like, I’m not the boss of this. There are so many experts. No one thrives exactly the same way. and I am in awe of many of them. My colleagues that I either know or don’t know that have contributed to the knowledge and science that I synthesize into thriving.
So podcast was a great medium to bring in people much smarter than I or experts in other areas and be able to tease out the knowledge that they have gained in practical ways. To offer guidance to people, to pursue a life of a healthy pace, to pursue what I call spiritual health, um, and to pursue purpose.
And my, my hope and intention is that by bringing the podcast, I can weave together voices of experts that will resonate with people in different ways that will enable them to move forward in their own journey holistically.
Nada Jones: And tell us, drumroll please, tell us the name of the podcast. I love this.
Pam King: The podcast name is With and For.
I love it. A really unsplashy name, two prepositions in a conjunction, but I actually think it’s power packed. Most people pursue well being, self care, mental health, thriving, flourishing as an individual endeavor. But psychology tells us that when we focus on ourselves, that’s a really dead end street fast.
And so ultimately, we thrive, we become our best fullest selves, when we are with others, and we are for others, and for a higher purpose. So I really wanted to lead with this idea that it’s not just another self help platform, but that this is something that is an invitation to a fuller life. That is with and for others.
Nada Jones: So let me ask you from the perspective of our listener, from my perspective, right, from the perspective of most of the cliches around midlife, it is often the case that we are not focused on self, that we are not, that we are doing everything. Within four others, how do you advise this audience your midlife as you’re in this on this journey with us to your midlife sort of sisters, your your cohort of sisters that it’s going through this with you?
How do you help us understand purpose or thriving when maybe we haven’t put ourselves first and yet there is this both and of with and for is what we need to thrive, but let’s not do that. mistake that for just serving our children, our husbands, our colleagues, our friends, like we can get lost in that.
Can you make a little bit of a distinction or a delineate for us the two different things that we’re talking about or you’re trying to say here?
Pam King: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for that invitation because I do think this middle third both provides real challenges for thriving as the way I think about it, but it also offers great opportunities for how I think about thriving.
So one of the many pieces of wisdom I’ve gained from you is is that balance is something that we hit as we move through extremes. And I think something that I’m finally owning up to in my own life, uh, in middle age is that life is really fluid and dynamic and this desire. I’ve always had to, like, get there, like, oh, have my purpose figured out, be in my lane, have my very short to do list and be present and all those aspirations.
I offer up now in a much more gentle way that they are aspirations and that every day is different and the world is dynamic and the demand’s on me. are always changing. So, and I really think COVID gave me personally a great opportunity to practice my ideas about an adaptive sense of purpose. So when you can get clear on what you feel like a purpose, like an enduring goal, whether it’s to help people thrive, to help people through your editing abilities, to your love of florals.
or your insane ability to organize and activate people. Working out how to use those passions and those natural strengths and competencies in different environments, it’s, is really helpful. But then in middle age, we’re in this place of flux where many of us have children that are less emotionally dependent on us.
And that is both, you know, really challenging. as a mom, right? But also offers up a little emotional ram just to use like a computer illustration and allows us to begin to have some more self driven or self fueled, self motivated goals that we might want to pursue. So I think like one of the things about a thriving mindset is, is both looking at challenges, but looking at the opportunities in those.
And then in this idea of thriving really. balancing between oneself and the other. And it’s never about me or about you or them. It’s always about us and about me and them. And I think in middle age, we get to slow down perhaps a little bit to reconnect with ourselves, uh, begin to connect with ourselves.
with our kids as emerging adults or young adults, where they can actually hold a bit more of who we are as a whole person. So I really encourage people to give themselves grace and space in like the balancing of us and them. And, and I know both of us have had moments where like we’re hot on the pursuit of a big professional goal and a kiddo or a friend or someone has a need and it’s like, Oh, Maybe next week.
Yeah. Um, and that’s life and, and for me, I’m grateful to have the flexibility and folks around me who can have patience with that and really welcome the opportunity to my son who just had shoulder surgery time to be with him because I know that’s a priority for me. I’m able to delay the more personal or professional pursuits.
Nada Jones: And so it sounds like what you’re saying is we’re, we can still hold space for being in service of others as perhaps in this conversation, the mothers that we want to be, right?
Pam King: Yeah.
Nada Jones: Or
Pam King: friends or
Nada Jones: daughters. Or friends. Yeah. Or daughters. Yes. Yes. That’s an important one. Sandwich generation moment. Yes. Yes.
But, or and, I think is the important word here. And we can also start to draw from our own pursuits or needs or things we haven’t given airtime to. I think for many that I’ve spoken with, sometimes that is just now bubbling up. It’s, they’re just now getting clarity about not what’s the job that I need to have or what’s the, That’s the way I want to spend my 20s, 30s, and even, you know, for some it’s coming into their 40s, but it’s all of a sudden like a, wait a minute, let me, let me make some decisions based on this new person that I’ve become, uh, or, and the things that I’ve allowed to emerge from me.
Mm hmm. So I think what you’re saying is holding both things or multiple things in this case is an important takeaway. What would you say, what were the three pillars again that you talked about in Thriving?
Pam King: The three pillars are like individual, individual, yeah, relational, and then the third is aspirational.
Okay. And I really think that that aspirational feels vague, middle, third, time of life is a lot. a great time to take stock and look at your life and like, what are the values that you’ve actually lived out? Like we all grow up maybe valuing, Oh, hard work or this or that. Uh, compassion is very Vogue right now.
If I look at my life, what have I valued and, and where have I found joy, experience joy? And then how can I pursue more of that? And I think one of the wonderful invitations of this age is, especially as our children are growing older, is like, how do we engage with them? Not just on their terms, but our terms as well.
So one of my sons, who you know, loves to cook. And I love to cook. That is a great way for me to connect with him. I’m not a big fan of watching football, so that’s not. But what are our, you know, purposeful endeavors that, um, we might pursue professionally, whether it’s creativity or management, like how can we help mentor our kids or connect with our kids out of our strengths, not just out of a sense of obligation or the duties that we had to do, like change diapers.
At one point in our life,
Nada Jones: okay, that’s a great way for us to sort of bring ourselves into those Relationships go through the pillars and give me an example In each and I’ll paint this scenario really quickly because I think our listeners are like, okay She’s got this person on the show that has all this insight and this expertise I want to wrap my head around this absolutely So I have been a stay at home mom or even worked part time for Let’s say the last 15 years, I’m stepping into my late 40s, early 50s, I’m feeling itchy, I’m feeling like there’s something I want to pursue, my children need me less, perhaps I didn’t have children, but I’ve hit a wall there, and I’m really trying to think about it.
what’s next. Walk us through those three pillars and some questions we might be asking ourselves so that we can move into that middle third with intention. You’ve talked about purpose, but I’d like to, I’d like to use those three pillars as context for how do we move through that season and pay attention to those three pillars or fill the buckets that those three um, Buckets, we’ll call them, require.
Pam King: Absolutely. At first, I’m going to give like a little disclaimer. Yeah. Not disclaimer. Like kind of a little preamble. I think this is really hard for middle aged women, ironically, is we really have to start with like loving ourselves and giving ourselves grace for where we are. I know of all people, like I can beat myself up, like shame on you.
You have a freaking PhD in this area. Why are you struggling to activate your purpose or whatever? So, you know, whether you’ve been working full time or you’ve been a full time parent, part time juggling, feeling like you’re doing nothing well, which is often my case, accept that and give yourself grace there.
Because honestly, like when we. feel more love or loved, we actually open up more to who we are. Like people just become themselves in the face of love. Like your kids, when they’re like afraid you’re going to crown them or judging them, they’re like not themselves. Um, and we all have had employers or colleagues who like, we just feel great with our friends and they get, they bring out the best in us.
So bring out the best in yourself. Love yourself. We got to start there. Um, so like, let’s talk about the buckets individually. So thinking about the person you put to mind, I would offer taking inventory, think of the decades of your life and try and identify one or two snapshots. Like if it was an Instagram, like what would you post of moments you felt joy?
What were you doing? Who were you with? What brought joy? Just think about the images. And what comes to mind? Does anything surprise you? Or is it like, Oh, no. Yeah, that’s me. I knew that. But consider then as you’re thinking about growing forward or pursuing something, maybe a little bit more seriously, looking to reenter or deepen one’s engagement in the workforce.
How might you use those cues from those images to think about what would you would pursue? Whether it was like, it’s really think about your competencies. What are you great at? And what do people say? Wow are really good at that and and often it’s those things that come so easily to us that we don’t even notice We’re doing them and other people are like, oh my god I’m so glad she’s doing that because I wouldn’t want to do that.
So think about those things your little secret powers your superpowers That’s what I’m trying to say. And then the second bucket is is relational And relationships are absolutely essential to who we are. And I challenge people to think about kind of two, there’s a spectrum of relationships, but two ends.
One are those people that are your peeps, that really get you, that know you, that have your back. They love you, you know, the good, bad, and the ugly of you. These are often friends. The family may not always be as patient with those things, or that’s not their job to love you when that’s things. Um, but who are those people who can really support you and get you and travel with you on this journey?
And then, you know, who are the people you’re obligated to, like, you have no choice. Um, and, and you probably want to be participating in those relationships because they take time. And especially as women, we care about our parents. We care about our siblings. We We care about our children and our spouse.
And often when people think professionally, they miss that aspect of life. So, but let’s think holistically about your life in entirety. And then the last group of people are like, who are those you want to serve or lead? Is there a population that you’re passionate about? Whether it is people with a certain disability or Or perhaps it’s creatives, what are the people that energize you and that you want to get out of bed in the morning and do something for?
So again, we’re looking at like, what are our superpowers and our strengths and our passions? Who are the people who support us, who we care for and we want to care for? And lastly, this area of aspiration is a little bit like, what do you stand for? Hmm. What roots you in your life or are there ideals that guide you?
These might come from family narratives of, you know, we’re the, my maiden name is Ebstyne. We’re the Ebstynes and we work hard. Or is it a cultural narrative, um, of values, um, a spiritual or religious often faith guides people. But I think it’s really important at this stage of life to consider not just ideals or values that we give.
have been giving lip service to, but what are we actually living out? Like what are really, what is our life rooted in? And take stock, is like that what you want to be about?
Nada Jones: Yeah.
Pam King: Do you want to be spending that much time with certain people, um, or in certain activities. And, and how can you pivot? I have an online course.
Someone that took the course, let me know that after she went through thinking about, I use an illustration of a plant, um, of the environment that she’s rooted in, that her ecosystem as an attorney was never going to support her values and that she needed to leave that they were never Going to provide an environment for her to become the person that she felt like she wanted to become and they were demanding other things from her and Through thinking about these three pillars.
She realized like this incongruence is not something that I should continue to live with So in thriving we adapt either we change our environment Or we change ourselves and in her case, she ended up changing her environment.
Nada Jones: That’s amazing. What a, what a powerful exercise for her to have gone through so that she could so clearly and objectively see where she was being held back and what she was perhaps being called into.
And I will say what you’ve set up. Thank you. Cause you did such a beautiful job setting that up, but that goes for much more than vocation for our listeners who. aren’t looking to go back to work or never, you know, haven’t been working and don’t want to work. They’re just trying to find meaning or purpose in what’s next.
And we are not defining meaning and purpose as going back to work. There’s so much that they can do and so many people that they can serve. And I think you did a beautiful job of, you know, illustrating that for us. And you did a beautiful job at our LA event in using some of that plant and soil kind of terminology.
And I know so many people talked about how powerful that was. And we’re going to get you in after school doing the same thing. So more people can can access your wisdom and your, the tools that you’ve created for us in that way. I have to ask you, because We’re going to try and keep moving through the work that you’re doing in the podcast, but I just have to pause and ask you here, what is spirituality for you?
We’ve asked, we’ve talked about what is thriving for you, but what is
Pam King: spirituality for you? Wonderful question. So for spirituality for me, and forgive me, I come a little technical at this because of the research, but how I will forgive you. Spirituality is people. perception and experience of transcendence.
And people from studies tend to have very different understandings of transcendence. Very traditionally and conventionally in the United States, that might be God. For some people who don’t have beliefs in God, it might be nature. We can think of like less divine or sanctified aspects of transcendence that could be, uh, a political group for my husband, the 49ers, it offers, you know, a connection beyond the self.
But what’s really important about transcendence, it’s not just this experience or connection with something beyond the self, but it’s also. also our response to transcendence. So true spirituality is not just like a heightened sense of emotion, a psychedelic trip. It is actually something that changes how we understand ourselves and the world and motivates us to live in a certain way.
So spirituality is, is quite transformative. Um, and, and I think Most people can pause and reflect and think about, huh, yeah, what, what is it in my life that has that kind of orienting power that, you know, I have these experiences. Sometimes they’re visceral and involve our sensations. Sometimes they’re emotional.
Sometimes they’re just cognitive, you know, our thoughts or beliefs, but that they have enough impact, whether it’s the intensity of one experience or it’s enduring over time that really do reorient how we live our lives.
Nada Jones: Yeah.
Pam King: So that’s how I think of spirituality and spiritual health is something that I’ve been thinking a lot more about and we talk about in the podcast and in psychology is really helpful to provide insight that not all spirituality is healthy or helpful, you know, so I’m sure there was a lot of exhilaration and transcendent sensations like in the Nazi movement.
But that activation was an arousal was not. towards good ends. So in spiritual health, I have a six facet framework for really understanding what aspects of spirituality enable us to have healthy spirituality, which I believe, whether you’re pursuing that within religion or faith or otherwise, we all need it because it involves the practices and rhythms that help us slow down, whether it’s mindfulness or whether it’s prayer, various forms of meditation.
It involves relationships and community. Spirituality is not an individual endeavor. It involves our identity, our, our sense of vocation and purpose, and it has a lot to do with our ethics. And um, the way we live out virtues in our beliefs. Like that moral component is really important.
Nada Jones: Well, you come back on the podcast and let’s just unpack some of that.
I, I just, I think having a spiritual, a conversation about spirituality is so important right now. And I’ve had other guests come in. on the podcast who have actually said things like, I think we’re living in a spiritually void time. I think that our hearts are hungry for spirituality. And these guests come from completely, wildly different backgrounds.
So it’s not because I’m having a homogenous group of people on the podcast. They’re coming from different points of view and they’re saying the same thing and sort of joining the choir of voices that are like, Hmm, have we, deprived ourselves of something in an effort to not deprive ourselves of anything,
Pam King: right?
The irony of that. And it’s actually something that I’ve been studying trends at a national level, um, with the Fetzer Institute, who’s been collecting data in a representative sample across America, looking at trends of spirituality, like terms of affiliation, beliefs, practices. I’ve been doing this AI analysis on interviews of people across America, and yes, diverse persons with different belief systems are longing for something, and the irony is many people have turned their backs to more traditional forms of spirituality, like religion, to find themselves just really searching and seeking, and that is another podcast.
Nada Jones: Yes, let’s have it, because I want to have the conversation, and I want to hear it. Uh, both to, to continue to ask ourselves deeper questions, but also to find some answers in it. And you’re, you’re a great, you’re a great person to tap into for that. As we sort of wind down this portion, um, before we get into our fast five, what is Midlife, the middle third.
What has it meant for you professionally and personally? What, what have you perhaps had to mourn and what have you had to, what have you begun to celebrate?
Pam King: Mm. I think that reality that, um, there’s limited time, both in a day and in a life has given me a heightened appreciation for reprioritizing and, and actually making some professional shifts.
So where I’ve spent the last two decades of my career Actually, working part time, which was a choice, mostly half time, but pursuing a lot of empirical psychological research, um, and teaching and mentoring students, because I deeply want to bring up, like, a new generation of leaders that have a mindset of thriving.
I’ve realized that I do really want to have, um, offer this information and knowledge to more people. And I think it’s timely, exactly what you’re saying. I think we are in a spiritual deficit. People are not thriving with the surgeon general and you know, all the research is showing how lonely and mental health issues.
And there’s great research that provides some really wonderful answers that aren’t even expensive. Like, 200 an hour therapy. therapy, but there are things around taking steps to pursue purpose, to be connected, to pursue spiritual health that will naturally bring space and pace to your life that can enable you to more intentionally thrive.
So imposing that on my own life and getting clear that I want to be able to, um, offer this to people beyond, um, Those really nerdy academics that, that I hang out with. So that’s, that’s been a big thing, um, at least at the professional level. Finally.
Nada Jones: We’ve been waiting for you, Pam, to offer that to us lay people who are, who are hanging out, uh, looking for the, looking to make those connections.
So I’m so glad that you are stretching, beginning with, um, the podcast, but I have a feeling there’s, there’s more to come where we get to access you and your research and your vision for what, uh, thriving life looks like. So thank you for the work that you’re
Pam King: doing. Can I say? Yeah. We’ve spent an extraordinary amount of time rebranding and developing a new website to offer resources and tools and insights around thriving and spiritual health at www.thethrivecenter.org. So I invite listeners, there’s lots of downloadable PDFs, there’s explanations, there’s a framework around the facets of spiritual health. And I hope that podcast, etc., that that would be helpful to people.
Nada Jones: We will also make sure that all of those things are in our show notes so that if listeners are driving or on their jog, they don’t have to pause, um, to write down what you just said.
Everything will be linkable. So have no fear, listeners, we’ve got your back here. Um, but thank you for sharing that with us. So really quickly, before I let you go, our fast five, tell me what is something you do on a regular basis? It could be daily, it could be you know, with any regularity, weekly, whatever, that keeps you grounded.
Pam King: It takes a lot. But one thing I’ll say that’s hard for me, but absolutely essential is I really try and take 10 minutes of like a silent meditation. And that’s a space where I can begin to unfold and hear myself or create a capacity to hear myself in my world, hear God, not always in those 10 minutes, but it just seems to create an opening.
Nada Jones: Yeah, I love that one and it’s amazing how that ten minutes can be hard to find, but it’s it’s It’s so important. And what are you currently reading?
Pam King: Ah, I am reading a beautiful book called Open and Unafraid by W. David Taylor, who is a colleague of mine at Fuller. And it’s actually a really audacious rendering of the Psalms, which I highly commend in a really new way.
But it’s a beautiful book. And I’m also reading a book an exquisite novel by Tracy Kidder, The Strength That Remains, that is about a Burundian, I hope I said that right, refugee from the Burundian genocide in the 90s. It’s really intense, but also really beautiful.
Nada Jones: Okay, well, we’ll link to both of those as well.
And what is a skincare must have? Like, I’m on a deserted island and this is the thing, this is the product that I take or a skincare hack. Because in this midlife season, it is a question I get all the time. So I’m like, let’s throw it in here. The hack, like at the end of the day, you know,
Pam King: pulling my fingers up, just to give me hope or remind me that there was a face that wasn’t so droopy at one point.
No. Will sunblock if I’m on an island? No, I’m just kidding. Um, I have been trying that S B L A, uh. Facial wand, um, that I think is. Helpful. You think it’s doing it? Okay. I think it’s helpful. And the eye wand thing, it’s new and different, but I, I think I like it.
Nada Jones: Okay. We’ll link to it. That’s a good one. And then what is something that has surprised you about midlife?
Ooh,
Pam King: I think the gravity of it. Like I, I have kind of floated through life and not floated, very intentional, but celebrated forties. Yeah. Celebrated 50. Like, this is great. And all of a sudden I’m 55. I’m like, wow. Yeah. There, there’s just a, there’s more losses at this stage than anticipated. Or, or I’ve always been thriving is a very audacious, daring thing to do.
And it is looking loss in the face. So that’s something I’ve always been braced for. But I think there’s just more of that now. Um, so, and being, trying to be, look it in the face and be open to it. I love that you’ve
Nada Jones: included that in thriving, that you just said that you put them in the company of one another, which I think it’s something we’ll unpack in that spiritual conversation that we’re going to have.
Thank you for that. And then what has building I think both the Thrive Center and your work around thriving, and let’s add the podcast, the With and For podcast. What have those things done to liberate you, Pam? Dear Pam. I don’t
Pam King: know. It’s interesting. It’s given me a lot of permission. My framework around the individual, relational and aspirational has really invite it invites me seasonally to rework that and reconsider that and at this stage um I think there’s enough significant shifts in terms of kids beginning to go to college, less obligations with many different local schools.
I think I feel more confidence in my own acquired knowledge and wisdom at this stage of like, how do I want to offer this? How do, how do I want to, to be about this work? So that that’s been really liberating. And the conversations through podcast, I love speaking with people just like this moment and being able to elicit.
Not just people’s wisdom and knowledge, but their stories that so shape their work and to hopefully shape that with practical an eye towards practical guidance about how people might approach life a little differently. That’s really exciting for me. So that just being able to dive deep in conversations with people has been liberating and wonderful.
Nada Jones: Well, I totally get that. That’s why I love the podcast too. I’m following you. Yeah. Well, I can’t wait to see what you’re going to do in that space. We all can’t. And thank you for coming and spending this time with us. I so appreciate it.
Pam King: Well, Nada, I’ve been so grateful to be part of your band of babes on Liberty Road in various endeavors in different seasons.
It’s always an honor and thank you for sharing my work and me and giving me this time. I’m so grateful for you. I always am learning from you.
Nada Jones: Hmm. Always. Thanks, Pam. Thank you. Thanks for saying that. And Liberty listeners, thank you guys for hanging out with, with Pam, uh, learning more about Thrive Center and her, uh, new podcast that will be launched by the time you hear this podcast with and for, we’ll have all of that in the show notes for you until next week.
Bye for now. Liberty Road is broadcast on all platforms, Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, Google podcast, and more. If you like what you’ve heard, please follow, rate, and review Liberty Road on Apple Podcast and Spotify. It helps us to know if these episodes are inspiring and equipping you to move into your middle third with intention.
Liberty Road is created by executive producer Nada Jones, supervising producer Elizabeth Wyndham, producer Julia Wyndham, and music by Jack Jones.
We’re so grateful that you listened today. If you’re still hungry for more resources on thriving and cultivating a life of practical wisdom and flourishing, visit our website, thethrivecenter.org or Liberty Road at liberty-road.com. If you haven’t subscribed yet, what are you waiting for?
We’d be honored if you’d join us on this journey toward thriving and wholeness.
We’ll be back next week. See you then.
Pam King: With & For is a production of The Thrive Center at Fuller Theological Seminary.
For more information, visit our website, thethrivecenter.org, where you’ll find all sorts of resources to support your pursuit of wholeness and a life of thriving on purpose. I am so grateful to the staff and fellows of the Thrive Center and our With & For podcast team.
Jill Westbrook is our Senior Director and Producer. Lauren Kim is our Operations Manager. Wren Jeurgensen is our Social Media Graphic Designer. Evan Rosa is our Consulting Producer. And special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology and Marriage and Family Therapy.
I’m your host, Dr. Pam King. Thank you for listening.
Dr. Pamela Ebstyne King
Pamela Ebstyne King is the Executive Director of the Thrive Center and the Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science in the School of Psychology at Fuller Theological Seminary. Her life’s purpose is to help people thrive. To this end, her academic work focuses on psychological and theological perspectives of human thriving and social flourishing. Her psychological research focuses on spiritual and moral development; the role of transcendent beliefs, narratives, and emotions in virtue development; and environments that promote thriving for diverse people. TheThriveCenter.org translates research into resources that promote wholeness, thriving, and spiritual health, and she is the host of the With & For podcast.
Nada Jones
Nada Jones is the founder and CEO of Liberty Road, a podcast and organization for entrepreneurial women focused on growth, wisdom, sharing stories, and finding purpose. Discover more of her work at www.liberty-road.com.
Episode Summary
Dr. Pam King joins longtime friend, entrepreneur, and inspiring podcast host Nada Jones on for a conversation on thriving and self-discovery in mid-life. Nada Jones is the founder and CEO of Liberty Road, a podcast and organization for entrepreneurial women focused on growth, wisdom, sharing stories, and finding purpose. She has a regular podcast where women in the middle third of their lives share their journeys of self-discovery.
Together they discuss Pam’s approach to thriving as a developmental psychologist; the adventure of women entering and exploring the middle third of their lives; Pam’s definition of thriving; and what might get in the way of thriving during this challenging period of life.
Pam shares resources from psychology and spirituality that can provide for people to grow and support others, describing three pillars for a thriving life: individual, relational, and aspirational.
Show Notes
- About Liberty Road podcast and organization
- “Pursuing your future doesn't end at 40. In fact, it may mark the beginning of knowing who you are, what you're capable of, and what you really want.”
- What is the Thrive Center?
- The intersection of psychological science and spiritual wisdom
- “The irony of the term of mental health is that it's actually defined by mental illness, or pathology, or depression, or anxiety.”
- What can go right with people?
- Explicit interest in spirituality: “There’s gotta be something more.”
- “A historical rift between religiously or spiritual things and psychological science.”
- Research-backed spirituality
- “A thriving life is a life on-purpose.”
- “It’s not just the journey, it’s the direction.”
- Thriving at the intersection of three pillars of life: individual, relational, and aspirational.
- “In the deepest part of my being, I really want to enable people to thrive in a very holistic way. And live more fully into who they are. Living more authentically, living with deeper connection and, and with deeper purpose.”
- Not just another self-help platform
- “How do you help us understand purpose or thriving when maybe we haven't put ourselves first?”
- Balance and moving through extremes
- Life is fluid and dynamic
- Middle age as a period of flux
- Looking at opportunities in challenges
- Motherhood and service for others
- Finding joy
- Examples for each three pillars
- Stay-at-home mom moving into a new phase of life
- “Start with loving ourselves and giving ourselves grace.”
- “Bring out the best in yourself. Love yourself.”
- What images come to mind as positive memories of competency and strength?
- Obligations in relationships
- What are we actually living out? Is it consistent with our values?
- Change your environment or change yourself.
- What is spirituality?
- “Spirituality is people’s perception and experience of transcendence. … But also our response to transcendence.”
- Spiritual health and psychology—”Not all spirituality is helpful or healthful.”
- “I think we're living in a spiritually void time.”
- “Have we deprived ourselves of something in an effort to not deprive ourselves of anything?”
- Pam King on life in the “middle third”
- Reprioritizing and making professional shifts
- What keeps you grounded? 10 minutes of silence of meditation.
- What are you currently reading? Open and Unafraid by W. David Taylor / Strength That Remains, by Tracy Kidder
- What is a skincare musthave? SBLA Facial Wand
- What has surprised you about the good life? There’s more losses than anticipated.
- What has your work done to liberate you? Reworking and reconsidering purpose; “Diving deep in conversations with people has been liberating and wonderful.”
About Nada Jones
Nada Jones is the founder and CEO of Liberty Road, a podcast and organization for entrepreneurial women focused on growth, wisdom, sharing stories, and finding purpose. Discover more of her work at www.liberty-road.com. About the Thrive Center- Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
- Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
- Follow us on X @thrivecenter
- Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter
- Host: Pam King
- Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
- Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
- Social Media Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
- Consulting Producer: Evan Rosa
Explore More
Blog
Does your sense-of-self and narrative support healthy spirituality?
What is the story you tell yourself about your life? Does it help you or keep you from thriving?
Thriving
What Does Thriving Mean?
What does it mean to thrive? In order to grow into the fullness of our lives, we need others and healthy spirituality to support us.
Emotions
A Practice Questions to Promote Love, Meaning and Purpose
Pivot from anxiety to meaning to discover yourself and your purposes. Find a trusted friend or small group and work through these questions.