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Pam King: Alexis Abernethy brings together worlds of spirituality, leadership, and socially informed community development in her work as a therapist and research psychologist. She finds that communal healing from trauma comes through deep, empathic, emotional awareness. She approaches burnout from a psychologically informed perspective on the Christian practices of Sabbath and worship and offers insightful resources to find rest and care for yourself on the way to an integrated life of spiritual health and thriving.
Alexis Abernethy: We have so many demands before us. We feel that we cannot stop. There is too much to do and we’re not stopping. Know that if you follow the rhythm of this world, you’ll likely be overworking and stressed out, if not traumatized. So I actually get more done following the rhythm of my body and paying attention to it.
Rhythms of deep work and deep breaths. This is how I want to lead. For me to survive and then actually. thrive in this kind of environment, I need to have a different rhythm.
Pam King: I’m Dr. Pam King, and you’re listening to with and for a podcast that explores the depths of psychological science and spiritual wisdom to offer practical guidance towards.
spiritual health, wholeness, and thriving on purpose.
Coming from decades of research, clinical work, and practice in the field. Dr. Alexis Abernethy cuts through theory and ideals and cuts to the chase of the complex realities of lived life. Loss, trauma. systemic racism, and the grinding and wearing away from the stresses of everyday life, and the pressure of leading in the face of unsolvable suffering and need.
Alexis keeps spiritual health real and accessible. She talks about sleep, concentration, irritation, relationships, and burnout. She takes us way beyond the bemoaning of consequences and offers balm for the soul. She talks shop about the power of rest and rhythm, the necessity of connection, and the transformative healing of communal purpose, whether through shared endeavors or even worship.
Absolutely essential to spiritual health and thriving in our chaotic and frenetic days, Alexis describes rhythms that we can internalize before we get to those soft symptoms or signs of stress. Let’s face it, we’re not sleeping. We can’t focus or concentrate. We get irritable. We’re taking in more caffeine than we need before we just roll into autopilot and let our normal symptom treatment kick into high gear.
And I do love my coffee. We can create habits and rhythms that enable us to avoid hitting those edges or even going over the edge. There’s lots of buzz about self care in our media today. This conversation isn’t about Bon Bon self care. but tending, tending to the complexity of our humanity and addressing the deep, pervasive, life giving practices that engage us and intertwine us in life giving ways with others and the sacred so that we can find and stay aligned with our purpose.
Alexis Abernethy is a colleague and a dear friend of mine. She’s a clinical psychologist. and professor of psychology in the Fuller School of Psychology, where for over 25 years, she has also served our community in so many ways, from chaplain to the faculty, to chief of diversity, equity, and inclusion, to her current role as chief academic officer at Fuller Theological Seminary.
Alexis, I am really thrilled to have you as a guest and dialogue partner on the show.
Alexis Abernethy: Pam, thank you so much. It’s an honor and I so treasure the times that we’ve had together over the years. So it’s a pleasure to be here.
Pam King: I’m really looking forward to probe and think with you and discuss with you how leaders can heal and thrive through trauma, both in terms of how they take care of themselves as leaders and how they lead communities as collectives.
and experience collective healing
in this world of rising storms. We often find ourselves observing tragedy, devastation and heartbreaking loss. Sometimes it’s just on a screen, but eventually it comes close to home for all of us. How do we weather these storms? Are we mere bystanders? Are we bearing witness? Are we helping rebuild?
Alexis Abernethy: I was already starting to hear before traveling to New Orleans that there may have been the breaking of the levees.
The way in which where the levees broke may have had to do with socioeconomic status as well as race.
Pam King: When Category 5 Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans in August of 2005. It wasn’t just about the storm itself. A socio political infrastructural storm was already brewing in New Orleans for a long time. And when the hurricane made landfall, the poorest communities took the brunt. Katrina caused 161 million dollars in damage from wind and flooding, but the human cost was staggering.
1, 833 people died, millions We’re left homeless as poor infrastructure and insufficient preparations saw the levees break, 80 percent of new Orleans was underwater. It was one of the deadliest and most devastating storms ever to hit the United States.
Alexis Abernethy: When we came to New Orleans, and I’ll never forget, first when you see the ninth ward, they’re just cement blocks, foundation, you know, the whole house is gone.
And the greatest tragedy to me was not only knowing that a family lived there and everything is wiped away. The only thing on the ground there is cement, a block of cement. We’re just totally obliterated and others are still standing. And if you think about that, if you’re living in the community and the pastors are sharing that, you know, you’ve got some people in the same community, neighbors, one who has a home, one who doesn’t, but it’s not just minor damage or a little damage.
It’s just this complete. Devastation. That picture is seared in my mind. And then you go in other communities and you don’t see that same kind of devastation. New Orleans is like a bowl. And the levees that the engineers had built and them being strengthened is critical to where water is going to go or not go.
And apparently the lived experience, which now has been more fully, widely acknowledged, it was not the hurricane. We would not have had all of that devastation with the hurricane alone, but it’s the breaking of the levees that rush the water in certain places. Predominantly where poor and African American people of color lived.
So as the pastors were sharing that, frankly, a deep anger just really was rising in me. Righteous indignation at that injustice, and we can’t control hurricanes, although how we live may have some impact. But levies, the building of levies, these things, those are within human control. So then this starts to be, you know, you can ask the general question, what is God doing in this?
What is his role in this kind of suffering? But as we talked to the pastors, they said part of what they’re holding for themselves and dealing with their congregation, is this is an interaction of an uncontrollable hurricane and man’s decision making. And even in the midst of this, these pastors, and I’m not saying that some might have, just like other people, leaving out of the area and even leaving the area, this would have just made you feel like, I don’t know whether I continue in ministry in this context.
I was amazed that these pastors were still trying to persist. in their call, knowing that God is a God of justice as well as love and mercy, living that out. But what we knew is then any program that we offer has to hold the breadth of this, you know, the breadth of the range of feelings. And of course, if you’re mixing with this, not only suffering that is man made as well as that’s It’s totally out of human control.
That calls for a different kind of recovery process. Because the anger, all of what that can rise up in folks, we have to deal with and hold all of that and give time for expression and healing in the midst of that.
Pam King: The anger and grief many felt at the lack of preparation persisted with frustrations about relief efforts. And it’s in acknowledging and attuning to those feelings. That important social action can emerge. Disasters at this scale can and do bring out the worst in us, but also the best in us. Amidst the destruction, we saw the helpers emerge, many from within the same suffering community.
Alexis was there. and saw countless church leaders rising to the occasion to care for their suffering community. But this raises an incredibly important concern. How do you help the helper? How do you care for the leader under the strain and duress of a storm like this?
So
Alexis Abernethy: pastors and their families were extending themselves and trying to meet the needs of folks that were dealing with major, major trauma and dislocation in terms of the effects of the hurricane.
And by this time, the pastors were reaching out to say, We’re needing help because we’re feeling the depletion. We’ve kind of been responding to the emergency and the crisis, and there’s still issues that we’re addressing, but now we are seeing the effect on ourselves. So, in that opportunity, we came and met with this pastor, met with some other folks, and basically started to develop a program where we were trying to respond to what the pastors needed, and it ended up being focusing on pastors, but we were working with spouses as well as individual pastors in that context.
So the first offering was surviving to thriving. That’s what we actually called it, drew on some of your work. Yes, actually, that was the first offering. So we offered retreats and the next year the focus was on resilience. and the third year cultivating relationships. So the goal was to provide space for the pastors and their spouses to share their own pain, their own experience of trauma, struggle, changes that happen not only in the church, but in the community as well.
And then to move toward helping them provide. resources, more psychologically informed, theologically informed resources for their congregation. And then we were able to collect some data. So there is an article that summarizes the Pastor’s Empowerment Program. That’s what we called it. But what was very important, the pastors wanted to understand, even from a physiological stress standpoint and trauma, what happens in the body.
Because again, some of this they had been experiencing already, but they really appreciated us highlighting the effects of trauma, psychologically, bodily, emotionally, those domains, interpersonally, how it affects how you engage. in the world and how some people over engage because this is one of the things we were particularly attended to.
There’s so many needs, you’re responding to what others need, and then that can have you not as much aware of what your own needs are and having been in overdrive. So one of the things we talked about is regulation and even emotion regulation. And sometimes when you slow down and even the retreat provided that space, right?
Time apart. time apart from their congregations, so they might really reflect on, okay, how are we doing? How am I doing? How am I doing with my spouse? So we talked about Sabbath. Sabbath is a very important part of that. So the theology of Sabbath, we both had times of instruction, but then followed immediately by discussion.
So there’s engagement, also an opportunity to reflect together. Resilience, that was about trying to have people understand that this is part of what they were actually representing. So on the one hand, they can feel this depletion, like I am overextended, I am feeling stressed, I am feeling traumatized by some of what has happened.
But yet, identifying those strengths that they’re also bringing. Now, this was an important part of the partnership. We were bringing expertise based on our areas of study, but from the beginning, we were aware that the pastors were also sharing with us. So, we were hearing from them how they’re resilient, and we actually lifted some of that up.
to say, these are some ways that you all are showing resilience. And then we were mainly adding to that to say, okay, if you have resilience in certain domains, maybe, you know, the spiritual domain, you may be engaged in the way that you would want to in terms of your spiritual life. But maybe your physical, you know, your commitment to exercise, whatever that looks like for you, your commitment to relationships that nurture and support you, those may be areas that are less attended to that you might want to strengthen in this period.
Resilience
Pam King: and strength, but also Sabbath and rest. It’s easy to internalize messages of persistence and never giving up mentality, but true sustainable longevity and holistic health comes from self care. The sense of urgency and the go, go, go is so often rewarded in our culture of workaholism. So many of us who want to live deeply into our vocation and do love our work and have a sense of calling, begin to let ourselves be defined by it and controlled by it.
Alexis’s work helps me and I believe will help you understand some of the root causes of burnout and how to begin reshaping a response that prioritizes our physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual health and leads us back to the kind of thriving we want in our work. I’m thinking of our listeners and they might be having an experience like me, like, wow, I’m not a superhero like those pastors.
Life is stressful. Um, post pandemic people might have traumas going on in their life or stressed, but I’m sure there’s some things that we can learn from this, even in our daily lives. And I’d love to hear you talk a bit about what are signs of burnout? I mean, here, pastors are leading in the name of God in a context where there’s more need than they can ever meet.
And so they are probably in overdrive, as you said, and more is more. How do you know when to pull back? What are signs that you get that you’re doing too much and that you might be burning out?
Alexis Abernethy: So the body often keeps a score, right? There’s a famous book, uh, Bessel van der Kolk. The body often may tell you before you realize.
So, what do we look at? Sleep. How is your sleep? People generally are getting less sleep, but then it’s not really restorative and restful. Early morning awakening, you know, not being able to get to sleep, not being able to wind down. Then we watch what we’re doing because sometimes when we’re not getting as much rest, you know, our caffeine intake, the ways that we intake stimulants, natural, if you will, stimulants, to help keep us.
on our game, if you will. So you want to watch what your body does. Do you have time just for pure rest? Because some of us, when life, and I’m including myself in this, when we have so many demands before us, we feel that we cannot stop. There is too much to do and we’re not stopping. Irritability, when we find ourselves emotionally or even in our personality being different.
And this is where sometimes people around us, our loved ones can give us very helpful feedback. Now, sometimes it’s harder for us to listen, right?
Pam King: Alexis introduces an important practice of taking inventory, something I really identify with because it shows how our attention and awareness can put us back in the driver’s seat of our lives. It’s about agency and asking who’s really in control here.
Alexis Abernethy: See, sometimes we have to even change our language.
When there’s a high demand, you can’t stay on top of things the way you might ideally want to, but you still have to gauge, okay? So this was a day that I was to be triaging. But by the end of the day, what did I start to feel? My body, a certain stiffness, I don’t even get headaches. Headaches are important indicator.
Started to feel a little throb, not a headache, but a little throb. Here’s a choice point and the Lord’s saying to me, daughter, you need to just shut down that computer and just play, do something different. Now, we get those signs kind of regularly, and what we’ll then say is, but I’ve got to press. I’ve got to get this done.
And that’s where the Lord says to me, okay, who’s in charge of your life? Are you in charge? His email is in charge, are other people in charge, or am I sovereign? Now that’s a testing of my faith related to time that’s incredible. So I have to tell you, did I pay attention to the first little throb? No. I mean, I debated.
I stayed there. The second throb, I stayed there. And then the third, I said, okay, Lord. I know continuing to press in this, I have to be done with this day as far as work and trust that you’ll give me what I need the next day. So a lot of times we have these soft signs that we just continually ignore, right?
But I want to highlight that because they’re often there. And then sometimes we have the major signs that can be more, you know, medical issues, health related difficulty. We’re trying, you know, it’s a constant struggle in life to not have it be to that extent. And that can be physical or emotional. So what would I say to folks?
First, know that if you follow the rhythm of this world, you’ll likely be overworking and stressed out, if not traumatized, okay? But definitely overworking and stressed out because that’s the rhythm. of our world. So to do first an inventory related to that, to check out in your life, what might you try to, just one thing, adjust a little bit.
Cause see, then when we see some progress in that, when we see, oh, I can maybe do one less thing and schedule that another time. And maybe when I do it, when I’m more rested, I actually am more efficient. So I actually get more done following the rhythm of my body and paying attention to it. Then that becomes a positive reinforcement to do that more.
And so we do it in one domain, and then we start to gradually do it in more domains. The
Pam King: rhythms of life sometimes speed up or slow down. I asked Alexis about how she approaches life seasons with attunement to her feelings and how those feelings impact the whole system of her life. From perspectives on herself to engagement with others.
The Cultivation of Habits and Routines. As an example of getting through a season we can all remember, she shared about her experience of trauma in the wake of George Floyd’s murder just a few months into the coronavirus pandemic. I appreciate that you’re naming our culture’s enthrallment or addiction with more so that we could even train ourselves to do less.
Because we’ll ultimately be doing more by doing less, which I think is wise because our brains are wired for incentives. Um, we love progress and that feels good to us. But I also hear you saying that there are rhythms that we can internalize before we get to those soft symptoms or signs of stress. I’d love to ask you, Lexis, has there been a season in your life where you’ve realized the rhythm, the ordering of my life is not working effectively?
It’s not aligned with how I, you might have viewed God wanted you to live and was there a reordering?
Alexis Abernethy: Yeah, sure. For me, it was actually related to the experience of what I’d say, collective trauma. It was following the murder of George Floyd. It’s almost like it pierced my heart. The tragedy of it is one powerful part of it.
The sense of collective fear related to trauma, that was the pandemic. That’s overlaid on it. And then I used to do work with police officers. decades ago on anger management. And we focused on anger management and use of force. I understand that this is not the kind of force, this is not consistent with policing.
So I felt even a more particular challenge related to that. So what did that mean? As time went on, and I’m feeling the pressure of that, I actually felt traumatized for the first time. Now, there were certain things that were contributing to that, other things that I was exposed to, but what was amazing me is that I couldn’t do anything more then.
I needed, even at a time where you’re in, you know, not 14, but more isolated, I actually needed the world to be much smaller around me. I had to retreat. I had to withdraw because I didn’t have what it took to be my more typical empathic self to give. So the amazing thing is it was a first a kind of withdrawal and even a little bit of a shutting down emotionally.
Not perceptible to probably a lot of people, but I knew my capacity. I just didn’t have it. And I did. I did withdraw. I knew part of what it was about. I knew I was feeling traumatized and it’s interesting. It was in a public setting. We were talking about Phil Allen has written this film, directed this film, Open Wounds.
And he’s talking about how the murder of his grandfather, who it was a secret, it was unknown that what had transpired. I’m in a public setting and all of this is coming together. I’m seeing the movie again, I’m a discussant, and emotionally I’m going to my head. Now here we’ve seen this very powerful film and I’m actually intellectualizing.
Now I had things to say, some great commentary, but I realized that was happening because It of the pressure I was feeling in many ways. So what I did is I did speak to it in the moment. I said, I am actually experiencing trauma right now related to this. And my tendency would be to intellectualize. I need to be emotionally present, but I’m not as able to do that.
Now, what was interesting by making that kind of process comment for myself, it actually helped me be. emotionally present, but some people were feeling that same thing. Now, this is that journey probably took about four or five months. And at the outcome, after that, I find myself mobilize. and ready to engage more deeply.
20 years ago, 25 years ago, I had been involved in research and work on anger management, use of force and police officers. I wanted to serve in a more tangible way in my community. Happened to be a member of the links and they also wanted our organization to play a role in the newly forming, Civilian Community Police Oversight Commission, so I stepped into that opportunity and now I’m serving and there’s a way then now I’m able to move forward along some of these and address some of these issues in an active way.
Now, this would have been the danger. If I’d gone right to action in this time when I was, that would have been literally a train wreck. I did not have the capacity. Something needed to be worked through in me that made me feel more vulnerable, more emotional, but I had to live through it. through that and then find a way of serving
Pam King: and how powerful that you could have jumped in and led out of your head and your knowledge based on your research.
But you’re being honest with yourself and in a very poignant moment, honest with others about your limitations
Alexis Abernethy: almost
Pam King: became an opening door to you to bring your emotional life. and start that process of emotionally synthesizing the profundity of the trauma and the violation that eventually enabled you to lead and serve wholeheartedly.
Alexis Abernethy: That’s right, yeah.
Pam King: I wanted to dig into some of the practical side of things and how Alexis cultivates a rhythm of rest in her life. Because of the American working context, we do need to approach our self care intentionally and we can use sound research backed strategies to great benefit and felt results. I think for our listeners who are leading, whether it’s their families, as a parent, a classroom as a teacher, a congregation or a nonprofit or a friendship group, that there is a pressure to have it all together, to know what to do.
And I hear you’re saying two things in that your process of this, your presence, your community at some point had to be experienced through an actual physical withdrawal and absence to be able to process that. And I want to give. us permission as leaders, um, as caregivers to realize that sometimes to be present, we do need to be absent.
And to trust God in that process, to be able to communicate explicitly about that process. But I think that gets tricky. I’m just going to bring it really, really close to home, literally, like for a parent who may not have, you know, the ability to step out of the fray of laundry and drop offs and their own work and domestic cooking or paying bills, et cetera.
How do you get micro doses or rhythms of rust in your life?
Alexis Abernethy: First, this is how I want to lead. For me to survive and then actually thrive in this kind of environment. I need to have a different rhythm. So it was beautiful in my systematic theology course by professor. And he not only talked about the Sabbath, but he modeled it.
He was talking about his life. in his church and how he lived out Sabbath principles. That’s all I needed. Once I got that theological insight along with what God had been telling me, then it was only a question of how would I live my life and in my work life in a way that would reflect those principles.
So I try not to work on the weekend. There are exceptions, and there’s sometimes I may work very late, even sometimes early morning, honestly. But there’s something about not just Sunday, Saturday and Sunday, that allows me to frankly both recover But then also honor the Sabbath. So this rhythm has worked in the way that when I sit down to work, I’m really able to engage it and I, so I now have this phrase that I use deep work, deep rest.
Hmm. Rhythms of deep work. Mm-Hmm. and deep rest. So it is a walk by faith. And I do get some challenge related to some of these boundaries that I have, I do. But then I offer back to my colleagues, how’s that unboundaried life working for you? It’s like, when you don’t have any boundaries, I mean, or when we’re working all the time, are you going to tell me that actually works?
So we have to find, you know, their times again. Where certain things I might want to do in terms of rest. Okay, I can’t rest in that moment. That can be a reality. An emergency, something has to be addressed. But I am looking for that next opportunity for rest, and the Lord provides that.
Pam King: The concept of Sabbath goes back into the divine rest that follows creative activity.
For many of us, the word Sabbath might feel or sound obsolete, sound so churchy or religious, but Sabbath is an imperative. In Genesis, We are told that even after God’s creative activity, he rested. In our culture, it is absolutely counterculture to rest. But the reality is, rest is an invitation to trust and to just be.
To trust that all will be alright. But let’s take a moment right now to reflect. What is your relationship to time?
Alexis Abernethy: Does
Pam King: time rule you?
Alexis Abernethy: Do you rule time?
Pam King: Does something higher possibly rule time?
What would you like your relationship with time to be? How
do you feel about the concept of pausing?
How comfortable are you with stillness?
Does that get in the way of the rest of your day? Or does that give you the opportunity for a micro dose of insight and reflection?
Implicit in Sabbath is the concept of trust and surrender. There’s this difficult balance of living into our agency and ability and agility, while also acknowledging that we don’t live in control of all circumstances. So there’s an important aspect of accepting our boundaries and limitations, an aspect of humility when it comes to Sabbath rest.
What is your theology of time? Who’s in charge
Alexis Abernethy: of time? I’m growing in my understanding of this. But God is in charge of time. So even when I was younger, you know, reading Genesis, it just was always curious to me, okay, God didn’t need to rest on that seventh day. I mean, he didn’t need to. So like, what is that about?
Imagine this, to be created in the image of God might just mean we work six days, not always literally. But we are in creative work. six days, and then the seventh day, we rest. Again, this is where the notion of boundaries, we like that in psychology, but it’s helpful because boundaries mean, there is a boundary, but it doesn’t mean that you may not work around it, through it, over it.
You know, there, it’s, it’s not like this rigid wall. So, what do I learn about time in that? I learn from Genesis. There is a rhythm. That’s where I get the notion of a rhythm of rest and work. And it’s that frequent. I mean, you know, God could have created the world in 364 days and rested on the 365th, right?
But it’s like the seven day cycle. So that means time in its compartments, in its sections matter. So that actually is the insight that you can’t work 11 months and then think everything can be recovered in one month. You can’t take like a one month Sabbath if you want to think about that away and working.
So that’s telling us something about time, the rhythm, and you know, just the beautiful way the sun, the moon, the way day and night. work together and even my body, it’s somewhat related to age, but my body remembers when we change the time. Now, that’s fascinating to me. My body knows and my body holds that.
So then I see time as a way of protecting, but I must say that part of what was convincing from a face standpoint. was because I do, one of the traditions, not my original tradition, but that I’ve leaned into has been one that encourages tithing. So when you’re talking about my money, I do get a particular view there and tithing wasn’t the tradition I was brought up in, giving to the church, yes, but not tithing.
So when you think about that 10%, and of course it can be more, but let’s just start with especially as a student and when I had much less money. It’s, I can’t afford this, and I’m looking at my budget and I know I can’t afford it, and yet I’m to give it, and I hear everybody saying, you know, in church, the importance of this, et cetera, et cetera, but I’m really questioning that because I don’t have it to give, and I feel similarly about time, that I don’t have the time to not.
work with me in showing me with tithing, how once again, he’s providing money would be the harder thing to negotiate than actually a tie. So it’s almost a matter of faith. Okay, Lord, you have been faithful in how you have provided financially. That doesn’t mean I have what I need. It doesn’t mean that historically, particularly that I was able to meet.
You know, fulfill my financial responsibilities in a process toward it, right? But credit card debt, you know, I was dealing with that, right? But yet we’re moving toward, we’re moving toward more fiscal soundness. So in partnering and feeling like, okay, Lord, I’m going to partner with you. I’m going to trust you related to my money.
Then when the notion of time comes forward. Oh, it’s about being a steward of this body. It is not mine to decide even what I do, ultimately. As I grow in him, I am to be a vessel for Christ. Not only in this world, but how I handle the vessel that he’s given me and it’s being a better steward of it. So that’s a real work in progress for me because there’s some ways that I’m being faithful and there are other ways I’ve got a long way to go.
Pam King: Now my listeners, you might be listening to this. Longing for rest. Perhaps you’ve lost sleep this week. Perhaps you’re emotionally exhausted. Whether you’re at home with young kids, working multiple jobs, or maybe both. And that is quite a cocktail. Have you entertained the possibility that you are in fact burned out?
We need to de stigmatize our human limits. Limitations can be seen as a gift. Not just a curse or obstacles, you don’t have to stay lost in the hustle, we can intervene and do something for ourselves, which can ultimately be the restorative healing we need in order to continue leading and serving and caring for others.
I asked Alexis to lead us through some practical insights directly related to dealing with burnout.
Alexis Abernethy: One practical step, there are measures of burnout. Just that are readily available online. And I’m not saying I might not evaluate some of them differently, but you could look at a psychology resource that would be probably better than just a practical, but it’ll just give you a little bit, you know, some self assessment questions to ask.
But what are some of the categories to attend to? Yes. And then almost like think about it a pre and post. You know, two columns. Remember when you first started in the job, you know, how you were feeling. And try to remember when you first came to the job and at least a time when you were feeling better and more engaged.
And then the second column, how you’re feeling about those domains now. What can happen when you’re burnt out, it just feels like what you’re doing every day has nothing to do with the purpose. or your calling or your vision for your life. So you want to do a comparison and contrast in some of those ways.
So both, that’s more the trajectory of your life, but then in terms of your emotions, are you mainly feeling, you know, sad? irritated, you might not even say depressed, but just feeling down, you know, the concentration dimension. So some of those symptoms, but emotional exhaustion has been a classic dimension of burnout.
Feeling depersonalized, but you can just say that less connected to people, feeling more isolated, feeling withdrawn. Now, some of these can be also associated with symptoms. of depression or other experiences as well, anxiety. But again, the difference generally is it’s related to your work. That’s one way to think about being burnt out.
The work that you’re doing is no longer satisfying and it’s not just a day. Any of us can be, feel dissatisfied at our job at one day or even a week, but then it’s kind of persisting. It’s kind of persisting. And sometimes this means that you just need some time apart. Then you might ask yourself, what’s contributing that?
Has something changed? Sometimes you have a new boss or you have new people that report to you. There’s an interpersonal dynamic that has changed that actually. Your work is no longer, you’re not doing it in the same way or different things are required of you. So we, it is important, burnout, you normally think about that and it is an individual experience.
Because I think of systems and as a group therapist, I also think about group dynamics and organizational dynamics. You want to not only look at what’s happening to you as an individual, has my setting, has my context changed? And the fit of your environment previously may have been a great fit for you.
The, a shift that’s occurred may not be as great fit. So sometimes something structurally needs to change. that will have you back in flow and other cases. But again, if you’re feeling that degree of burnout, you do want to absolutely do something. Something does need to change and get consultation. Some of us have very wise friends.
Some of us have a pastor or chaplain we could talk to. Some of us have a coworker. That we could speak to family, you know, so definitely get some input from others as well.
Pam King: There’s all these, you know, activities out there. There’s exercise, obviously you’ve talked about Sabbath rest, mindfulness. Are there other things that we might do if we’re feeling
Alexis Abernethy: burnt out?
That’s right. So one way to think about if you think of these domains, I’m not going to cover all of them, but if we think about the physical, the emotional, the spiritual, the intellectual, the relational, so let’s at least place those before, a nice time to do inventory. Okay, am I doing something in those domains?
What domain am I maybe not attending to? Because sometimes it can actually help To either do something that you love, whatever domain it is, just to pursue something you love because that’s also a sign you do something that you normally enjoy and you do not enjoy it. That’s another way of assessing, okay, I am, uh, something has, has changed here.
But another way of kind of kickstarting yourself can be one of those domains that you haven’t attended to that, you know, is a little bit less addressed. then do something new in that domain. So you’re right. Physical activity has so many different benefits and some people feel the pressure. Well, I’m not an athlete.
You do not need to be an athlete. For some people, just walking one block is huge. Deep breathe as you walk. And yes, mindfulness is very popular now and Some of us who are cultural or religious traditions, we might be a little uncomfortable. Their mindfulness that we can use words that are totally comfortable with anyone’s tradition or background.
Music, all of these different kinds of ways we can engage artistically can be very important as well. Yes, so take some active steps. So, what would I be saying? Try to do a little bit of a self assessment, kind of that before after. That would be the first step to, okay, has something changed? And again, just something for a week.
We don’t get burnt out in a week. Just keep that in mind. It’s something that happens more over time. Okay? And then when you look at that pre post, where has there been a change? Okay? Is that more about me? Or does, has something actually happen in the environment? Because that lets you know then how you might want to intervene.
But then talk to someone to get a different perspective. Get that consultation. And then yes, do something different. With burnout, it doesn’t get better. You know, burnout is a sign. And sometimes I do want to say this, sometimes we’re ashamed or afraid to share. that we’re struggling. I get that. I’m a kind of reserved, more private person.
I get it. But you know what? We’re made to be in relationship with God and with one another. And so this is where I think about who can you trust in your circle? And some of us we might not identify for. So some of us, we might go to a professional, which is fine. You know, it could be a spiritual director.
It could be a therapist, but the most important thing is to reach out. To reach out, even when it’s hard, and I know. There could be somebody listening right now that is feeling burnt out. And the hardest thing to do could be to talk to anybody. I hear you. I understand that place. And it might mean you can’t talk to somebody tomorrow, but what about next week?
What about in the next? couple of weeks to work toward being able to talk to someone. That’s really important.
Pam King: I would elaborate on that a little bit, that sometimes people can be in a place where they are so burnt out, they’re fried, they feel stuck, languishing are words we use, or, or actually can be moving into a clinical depression. But sometimes we do need to do a little bit of an override. And say, yes, I can’t talk to someone right now.
That’s too much. But I am going to make a choice to override my avoidance tendencies and make an appointment. Or whether it’s to talk to a friend, ideal if one can talk to one’s supervisor and share, Hey, I’m struggling. These are things I’m experiencing. Can you give me feedback? Can we address this? Can we make a change temporarily?
Or to seek professional help or pastoral wisdom are all options that are really important to burnout. And I think from a faith perspective, we need to know God doesn’t want us burnt out. He needs us fully alive to be fully engaged with his ongoing work in this world. So we take burnout very seriously.
That our abilities to offer our lives as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, will be impaired if we don’t take this issue of burnout and self care very seriously. And I think in a day and age where, you know, post COVID and quarantine, we’ve really blurred the boundaries between work and life.
And our work life balance often is swinging through extremes. And so it’s harder to keep those clear boundaries.
Alexis Abernethy: Absolutely. And what I would add, and this I do at times for people of faith, and we know that even people who may say they don’t believe in God will sometimes call on God, right? Amen. Jesus, I’ll just sometimes say, Jesus.
Just cry out, help me Lord, help me Lord, open the scripture, open the word of God, read a psalm, cause psalms get in touch with our emotions in such a powerful way. Absolutely. Just cry out to God, do you hear me? And it’s amazing that just a kind of brief expression like that, I’ve seen the Lord just reorder things.
The situation I’m in is still the situation I’ve been. But somehow something shifts. So I encourage that too. And so sometimes when we say pray about it, Oh, that’s a long way to pray. I don’t have that energy. Just call on the name of Jesus. Lord have mercy. Amen. Amen.
Pam King: What I appreciate about Alexis is the way in which she draws together so much of faith, theology, spirituality, community, and relationships, and makes sense of it all through her therapeutic and research based psychology. One of those more personal practices that Alexis pursues in her own life is the act of singing.
To find one’s voice, both emerging from oneself and merging. with others is a beautiful, activating, and energizing and restorative thing. And for many Christians and other religious folks, singing directly correlates with Sabbath in the act of weekend worship services. Alexis, I’ve really appreciated how you have really named and identified that we are physical, we are embodied, as we say as Christians.
And I know some of your other research has been on worship, and I also know singing is a big part of your life. And I’ve had the opportunity to hear you sing at Disney Hall here in Los Angeles with Faithful Central Bible Church Choir. What I’d love to ask you is how has singing in your own life been a source of healing or rest?
Alexis Abernethy: I love that question. Well, you know, I was in chapel a few weeks ago, and after the message, they had us just reflect in silence. And it was a moment where I was feeling sad. I was actually crying and it’s like, well, am I sad? I am partly sad, but it was like this tender sadness. And what came to me then, because it was a classical music, maybe one of our worship leaders is a violinist, so it’s possible, and I think that’s true, that either classical music was playing or she was playing classical music.
I realized in that moment that music was my first thing. Language, not English. Wow. Not English. There are many reasons for that, but my parents are musicians. They met when my father just came through the city on a tour, a national tour, and my mother happened to accompany him. But when I was a little baby.
And we call it bumping. I would literally be bumping my head on the bed and sing. And that’s how I would lull myself to sleep. And it was so funny, normally that might last five or ten minutes, maybe, I really don’t know. And then I normally go to sleep. But if I didn’t, then it might be extended, right?
Sometimes my parents, because our house was very small then, so you could kind of hear what’s happening from room to room. My brothers would say, my mother and father would say, okay, Lexi, go to sleep now. And then my brothers would say, no, let her sing. On that note, Alexis,
Pam King: I want to ask you something very unconventional.
Okay, okay. Would you
Alexis Abernethy: sing for us? Oh my goodness. Would
Pam King: you sing a stanza or two of a praise song or a hymn that you love that heals you, that is balm
Alexis Abernethy: to your soul? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Dr. David Allen, we was meeting with groups that are so transformative, that are changing gang leaders lives and reversing the violence in the Bahamas community.
He has a beautiful voice and my father was Baso Profundo. So my father also had a beautiful voice. And you know, one of the things that he does in these groups that are so transformative, he will actually sing at times. in these groups. And so he was meeting with a group of us. And he just bursts out right singing.
Sometimes I feel like a motherless child. Hmm. Sometimes I feel
like a motherless child.
Sometimes I feel like a motherless child.
Sometimes I feel
Like a motherless child A long way
Pam King: Thank you. What a gift, what a space you’ve created for our longings, for us to just be in our vulnerable self. That was just a gift to me. I’d love to ask you about the power of singing individually or communally.
Alexis Abernethy: The power of singing transcends religious experiences. So we have to know that. The power of music transcends.
It just transcends. But in our study of worship, corporate worship, and we’ve asked worship leaders as well as members of the congregation, how does it change your life? The beautiful news is, yes, People are talking about being transformed in their corporate worship experiences. And what role does music play?
Others have written about this, but we heard worship leaders sharing that when they are leading worship, they are worshiping God. They’re not cheerleaders. So what you have is a worship leader, a fellow soul who’s worshiping, and you see that before you. And then we are all joining together in collectively worshiping God and singing.
We’re offering up whether we’re trained singers or not, whether our voice sounds okay or not. We are praising God, lifting up his name together. So even in singing, you’re seeking a common note. At least a note that’s in the chord, or close enough. It’s communal not only that we’re singing together, but we’re singing toward a purpose.
A note, a chord, a musical purpose. But then we’re singing toward a common spiritual purpose, glorifying God. And then our bodies are doing it together. And it’s just such a beautiful expression of our connection. One to another. There’s a binding, and interestingly enough, Dr. Allen and his groups, a way they end is bind us together.
They sing that together, bind us together, Lord, bind us together. Bind us together in love. Singing does that. Singing in the context of worship even more powerfully does that. I love
Pam King: that idea of that embodied experience. of connection, that the harmony, the synchronicity, the commonality, and the shared purpose that is transcendent, that is beyond the self, is so profound.
And when I think of a thriving community, I do think of one that can lift their voices together, that can connect together in both healing ways, but then in purposeful ways that are so expressive of thriving and participating in God’s ongoing work and glorifying God.
Alexis Abernethy: What
Pam King: does thriving mean
Alexis Abernethy: to you?
Thriving means walking toward. Discovering and experiencing the calling that God has for my life. It doesn’t mean I’m always in it. It’s walking toward it. The discovery is really rich. You know, you think of calling as a destination. It’s not. It evolves. It evolves. And so I think I said walking toward discovering the calling that God has, the experiencing is the communal part of it in relationship.
I don’t thrive by myself. There’s no way. I can thrive by myself. Do it in community.
Thank you
Pam King: for bringing your full self, your intelligence, your heart, and your spirit to us today. It has, for me personally, been very rich and meaningful and like, balm to my soul. I’m very grateful.
Alexis Abernethy: Thank you. Thank you so much, Pam. I really enjoyed this. I appreciate again this time with you.
The
Pam King: feeling of listening to Alexis sing those words of grief and longing are so cathartic. There is a hopefulness in Alexis that sums up so much of how we can weather this pandemic. The trauma of life’s storms. The key takeaways that I will carry with me from this conversation are the following.
Catastrophes don’t hit us all the same. We all weather life’s storms in different ways. It’s when we find healing and restoration in community. that we can integrate personal, relational, and political thriving. Limitations can be our friends. Irritation, lack of concentration, fatigue are all signposts to the need for self care.
Burnout is complex. It often involves a shift in our context, making our environment or job not a good fit for who we are. To quote Bessel van der Kolk, Our bodies keep the score. Burnout and psychological stress are often manifested with psychosomatic symptoms. We need to be aware of our relationship to time and how our trust and faith come into play when it comes to rest.
I need more microdoses of rest. and perhaps macro doses of sleep. We thrive when our vocation lines up with our work, but we need to address our culture’s workaholism by talking more about strategies for rest that contribute to spiritual health.
With and For is a production of the Thrive Center at Fuller Theological Seminary. This episode featured Alexis Abernethy with very special thanks to Sukari Waters. This season, new episodes drop every Monday. For more information, visit our website, thethrivecenter. org, where you’ll find all sorts of resources to support your pursuit of wholeness and a life of thriving on purpose.
I am so grateful to the staff and fellows of the Thrive Center and our With and For podcast team. Jill Westbrook is our senior director and producer. Lauren Kim is our operations manager. Wren Jurgensen is our social media graphic designer. Evan Rosa is our consulting producer. And special thanks to the team at Fuller Studio and the Fuller School of Psychology and Marriage and Family Therapy.
I’m your host, Dr. Pam King. Thank you for listening.
Dr. Alexis Abernethy
Alexis Abernethy is a Clinical Psychologist and Professor of Psychology in the School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy at Fuller Theological Seminary. In 2021 she was named Chief Academic officer at Fuller.
Episode Summary
Therapist and research psychologist Dr. Alexis Abernethy brings together worlds of spirituality, leadership, and socially informed community development. She has found that communal healing from trauma comes through deep, empathic, emotional awareness. She approaches burnout from a psychologically informed perspective on the Christian practices of Sabbath and worship and offers insightful resources to find rest and care for yourself on the way to an integrated life of spiritual health and thriving.
Show Notes
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“We have so many demands before us, we feel that we cannot stop. There is too much to do, and we're not stopping. … Know that if you follow the rhythm of this world, you'll likely be overworking and stressed out, if not traumatized, so I actually get more done following the rhythm of my body and paying attention to it. Rhythms of deep work and deep rest. This is how I want to lead. For me to survive and then actually thrive in this kind of environment, I need to have a different rhythm.” — Alexis Abernethy, Fuller School of Psychology
Coming from decades of research, clinical work, and practice in the field, Dr. Alexis Abernethy cuts through theory and ideals, addressing the complex realities of life: loss, trauma, systemic racism, the grinding and wearing away from the stresses of everyday life, and the pressure to lead in the face of unsolvable suffering and need.
Alexis keeps spiritual health real and accessible, addressing research-backed principles on sleep, concentration, irritation, relationships, and burnout.
Absolutely essential to spiritual health and thriving in our chaotic and frenetic days, Alexis describes rhythms that we can internalize before we get to those soft symptoms or signs of stress.
This is a rich and robust conversation about self care at the deepest and most impactful levels in our physical, mental, and spiritual lives—tending to the complexity of our humanity and addressing the deep, pervasive practices that engage us and intertwine us with others and with the sacred, so that we can find and stay aligned with our purpose.
In this conversation, we discuss:
- Her research and therapeutic work with traumatized pastors after Hurricane Katrina, emphasizing the necessity of self-care for the caregivers.
- How to identify the symptoms of burnout and how to respond.
- The Christian practice of Sabbath rest, worship, and singing, which Alexis personally experiences as a source of healing and restoration.
Show Notes
- “Rhythms of deep work and deep rest. This is how I want to lead.”
- Alexis Abernethy’s research and expertise
- How leaders can heal and thrive, taking care of themselves and leading their communitities, even amidst traumatic circumstances and the threat of burnout
- Caring for pastors and local leaders in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans, Louisiana
- “It's just this complete devastation. That picture is seared in my mind, and then you go in other communities, and you don't see that same kind of devastation.”
- “Frankly, a deep anger just really was rising in me. righteous indignation at that injustice.”
- “This is an interaction of an uncontrollable hurricane and man's decision making.”
- Dealing with and holding all the anger that rises up as we develop a care and recovery process for healing after trauma
- How to help the helpers? How to care for leaders who care for others?
- Surviving to Thriving, Resilience, and Cultivating Relationships
- Pastors’ Empowerment Program
- “What happens in the body?”
- Trauma’s effects: physically, psychologically, emotionally, interpersonally—”how it affects how you engage in the world and how some people over-engage”
- Emotion regulation
- Theology of Sabbath
- The symptoms and root causes of burnout
- The Body Keeps the Score
- Restorative and restful sleep
- Irritability
- Attention and awareness: “Whose really in control here?”
- “First, know that if you follow the rhythm of this world, you'll likely be overworking and stressed out, if not traumatized, okay? But definitely overworking and stressed out, because that's the rhythm of our world.”
- Take a personal inventory for the purposes of making small adjustments that prioritize the balance of work and rest.
- How efficiency follows rest
- How to reorder the rhythms of life
- Alexis’s response to the murder of George Floyd in 2020—feeling traumatized
- “I actually needed the world to be much smaller around me. I had to retreat. I had to withdraw because I didn't have what it took to be my more typical empathic self.”
- Phil Allen’s film, Open Wounds
- Intellectualizing (as opposed to emotional presence) as a response to trauma
- The pressure to have it all together and know what to do
- Permission as leaders and caregivers—in order to be present, we need to be absent.
- Microdoses of rhythm and rest
- Theological insights and Sabbath principles
- How to implement Sabbath principles
- “Deep work. Deep rest.”
- “How’s that unboundaried life working for you?”
- Exercise: What is your relationship to time?
- What is your theology of time?
- “God is in charge of time.”
- The image of God
- Comparing time and tithing: God’s provision and principles of discipline and trust
- How to deal with burnout in professional life and leadership
- Compare and contrast where you’ve been with where you’re going
- Emotional exhaustion
- Attending to various domains: the physical, the emotional, the spiritual, the intellectual, the relational…
- “There are mindfulness that we can use words that are totally comfortable with anyone's tradition or background.”
- The difficulty of sharing about burnout, and the shame or fear that prevents connection with others about what you’re experiencing
- Languishing and depression sometimes requires an override in order to seek professional help and talk about difficult emotions that come from burnout.
- Prayer, scripture, and a brief emotional expression to God: “Jesus!” “Lord, have mercy!”
- The healing practice of singing together
- “Music was my first language.”
- “Sometimes I feel like a motherless child … a long way from home”
- “The power of music transcends religious experiences.”
- Psychological research on corporate worship experiences.
- “You’re seeking a common note … It's communal not only that we're singing together, but we're singing toward a purpose … glorifying God.”
- “Bind us together, Lord, bind us together in love.”
- What does thriving mean to you?
- Thriving means walking toward discovering and experiencing the calling that God has for my life. It doesn't mean I'm always in it. It's walking toward it. The discovery is really rich. You know, you think of calling as a destination. It's not. It evolves. It evolves.”
- “I don’t thrive by myself. There’s no way I can thrive by myself. I do it in community.”
Pam’s Key Takeaways
- Catastrophes don't hit us all the same. We all weather life storms in different ways. It's when we find healing and restoration in community that we can integrate personal, relational, and political thriving.
- Limitations can be our friends. Irritation, lack of concentration, fatigue are all signposts to the need for self care.
- Burnout is complex, often involves a shift in our context, making our environment or job not a good fit for who we are.
- To quote Bessel van der Kolk, our bodies keep the score. Burnout and psychological stress are often manifested with psychosomatic symptoms.
- We need to be aware of our relationship to time and how our trust and faith come into play when it comes to rest.
- I need more microdoses of rest and perhaps macrodoses of sleep.
- We thrive when our vocation lines up with our work. but we need to address our culture's workaholism by talking more about strategies for rest that contribute to spiritual health.
About the Thrive Center
- Learn more at thethrivecenter.org.
- Follow us on Instagram @thrivecenter
- Follow us on X @thrivecenter
- Follow us on LinkedIn @thethrivecenter
About Dr. Pam King
Dr. Pam King is Executive Director the Thrive Center and is Peter L. Benson Professor of Applied Developmental Science at Fuller School of Psychology & Marriage and Family Therapy. Follow her @drpamking.About With & For
- Host: Pam King
- Senior Director and Producer: Jill Westbrook
- Operations Manager: Lauren Kim
- Social Media Graphic Designer: Wren Juergensen
- Consulting Producer: Evan Rosa
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